vinuneuro

I'd be careful going away from OEM bushings in a car like the ITR. The suspension including the bushings are engineered to have certain characteristics. These are among the subtleties that set this car apart from others. One example:

In order to enhance stability while braking in a straight line or cornering, the L-shaped lower control arm has been equipped with specially tuned compliance bushings. These bushings allow the lower control arm to impart a toe-out condition on the front wheels. Allowing the wheels to toe out while braking in a corner enhances stability and allows the vehicle to track more precisely. The engineering team has tailored the suspension to take the full benefit of negative scrub geometry, especially when braking on a split-friction surface. Under this condition, the suspension tends to maintain greater directional stability by countering the forces that would normally tend to steer the vehicle in the direction of the side with the lower traction coefficient. By balancing these forces, the Type R tends to brake with maximum stability.

Dave_B

I'm thinking everything can be improved on.

The last ones are 7 years old, and the design is about 10 years old. I for one would like to think technology has changed a lot since then.

Erik95LS

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave_B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm thinking everything can be improved on.

The last ones are 7 years old, and the design is about 10 years old. I for one would like to think technology has changed a lot since then.</TD></TR></TABLE>

yep. Not to mention the stock bushings were designed to do all that with the stock suspension, not the stiff stuff Jim has on his car.

coolhandluke

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave_B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm thinking everything can be improved on.

The last ones are 7 years old, and the design is about 10 years old. I for one would like to think technology has changed a lot since then.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Also, the additional age on the OEM rubber is a loss in performance through dry rotting and wear/tear. Al and Jim don't just throw products out on the market. All of their products are tested on the track. If they pass, then they proceed into production stages. That is one of many reasons why I want to support them. (And their continued support as sponsors of Expos.)

vinuneuro

Of course anything can be improved on, given the resources. That said, suggesting that a small/new aftermarket company can out-engineer/develop Honda is pretty naive, esp considering parts like bushings. That goes all the more when you consider that the ITR is one of the best setup/balanced vehicles to ever come from the (any) factory.

New OEM bushings are the way to go for a street driven ITR imo.

Dave_B

Would you put spherical bearings on a street car?

We aren't talking street cars here at all.

vinuneuro

If it isn't a street car, why doesn't he just use all sphericals then. Certainly looks like a street car.

vinuneuro

Back to the original topic of debate, almost all of the bushings in the pics look like rubber. Whether they're any harder than oem rubber can only be verified by a durometer. Even if they are, I can guarantee you each bushing's deflection isn't tuned (I highly doubt they are at all) like how it is from Honda.

If you want harder rubber bushings, buy Mugen.

Hooch'n

oem rubber was designed for street and some track use with 375lbs of spring.... Currently those running (example) PIC have 12k 14k which is something like 650lbs and 800lbs.

walker111

The car is def not an all out track car, it gets driven more on the street than on the track...but it does see as much track as I can afford.

If you're telling me that 10 year old bushings are still superior to these PIC parts, I have to disagree. I understand Honda put some thought behind a product, but I also believe that an aftermarket company can do the same. There are better parts out there for any car, some will help, some won't. I strongly believe that these bushings will HELP in the feel of this car.

&lt;NO desire in going spherical bushings

walker111

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Erik95LS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

yep. Not to mention the stock bushings were designed to do all that with the stock suspension, not the stiff stuff Jim has on his car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly, Honda built the ITR a specific way, my car in the opinion of Honda....is FAR from stock.

get RIGHT

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vinuneuro &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If you want harder rubber bushings, buy Mugen.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats the route I went and I couldn't be happier with it.

walker111

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by get RIGHT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Thats the route I went and I couldn't be happier with it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

If I had 2k to **** away I'd buy mugen too

get RIGHT

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by walker111 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If I had 2k to **** away I'd buy mugen too </TD></TR></TABLE>
**** away? I dont think I would call it that. Nor was it 2k.

walker111

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by get RIGHT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
**** away? I dont think I would call it that. Nor was it 2k.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I just went to Kings site, I cant even find all the bushings/arms that came with the PIC kit. I will however eventually buy there motor mounts.

I wouldnt call it pissing away either, I do consider it expensive though.

Erik95LS

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by walker111 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I just went to Kings site, I cant even find all the bushings/arms that came with the PIC kit. I will however eventually buy there motor mounts.

I wouldnt call it pissing away either, I do consider it expensive though. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Hard race mounts are much nicer for a lot less money

mlrmotorsports

Mugen=OEM they might be slightly hard rubber but not by much. Spherical is the way to go if its a track car.


Wicked tuning line has some really nice stuff out. PIC does offer soem good stuff also I have been running there stuff for years

vinuneuro

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by walker111 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The car is def not an all out track car, it gets driven more on the street than on the track...but it does see as much track as I can afford.

If you're telling me that 10 year old bushings are still superior to these PIC parts, I have to disagree. I understand Honda put some thought behind a product, but I also believe that an aftermarket company can do the same. There are better parts out there for any car, some will help, some won't. I strongly believe that these bushings will HELP in the feel of this car.

&lt;NO desire in going spherical bushings</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not telling your 10yo bushings will be better, I'm suggesting that new OEM bushings will be vastly better.

It's ridiculous to think that a company of two guys can out-do one of the world's finest automaker's mechanical and materials engineers. Your bushings were designed, developed, tested, developed. I think you're underestimating how much there is to engineering these kings of parts and how much effort went into (what may seem mundane to you) them. It's not like changing spring rate or valving. I just find it astonishing that you'll pay for your car double of what you would for a GSR, only to cheap out on what makes the car so good as a street/track driven vehicle.

Btw, what bushings are missing here? If anything, there might be more than what's in the pics. The final total for the Mugen bushings is $1043, not $2k. If you wanted to save money, you'd keep the oem control arms and press in new bushings.

Front Compliance Set - 2 Piece Set
Front Lower Arm Set - 2 Piece Set
Front Shock Absorber Fork Set - 2 Piece Set
Front Spring Mount Set - 2 Piece Set
Front Upper Arm Set - 4 Piece Set
Steering Box Cushion Set
Rear Compensator Arm Set - 4 Piece Set
Rear Lower Arm Set - 4 Piece Set
Rear Spring Mount Set - 2 Piece Set
Rear Trailing Arm Set - 2 Piece Set
Rear Upper Arm Inner Set - 2 Piece Set
Rear Upper Arm Outer Set - 2 Piece Set

eluam

I don't understand people's thinking when they say Honda engineered it that way, and thats got to be the best way. I'm sure Porsche puts a lot more engineering into their suspension, but race teams still put aftermarket stuff on the vehicles. So Jim wants to put race suspension on a mainly street car. As long as he doesn't comprimise the streetability of the vehicle, I don't see anything wrong with it.

vinuneuro

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eluam &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't understand people's thinking when they say Honda engineered it that way, and thats got to be the best way. I'm sure Porsche puts a lot more engineering into their suspension, but race teams still put aftermarket stuff on the vehicles. So Jim wants to put race suspension on a mainly street car. As long as he doesn't comprimise the streetability of the vehicle, I don't see anything wrong with it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So you're comparing race and street cars now? And fyi, Porsche offers a ton of support to customer cars.

EG6-DC2

Minus trailing arm bushings and maybe a couple of others. Here is the best deal going for replace and slightly upgrading them. I know I have told a couple of people about these.

http://bulletproofautomotive.c...=4948

walker111

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vinuneuro &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'm not telling your 10yo bushings will be better, I'm suggesting that new OEM bushings will be vastly better.

It's ridiculous to think that a company of two guys can out-do one of the world's finest automaker's mechanical and materials engineers. Your bushings were designed, developed, tested, developed. I think you're underestimating how much there is to engineering these kings of parts and how much effort went into (what may seem mundane to you) them. It's not like changing spring rate or valving. I just find it astonishing that you'll pay for your car double of what you would for a GSR, only to cheap out on what makes the car so good as a street/track driven vehicle.

Btw, what bushings are missing here? If anything, there might be more than what's in the pics. The final total for the Mugen bushings is $1043, not $2k. If you wanted to save money, you'd keep the oem control arms and press in new bushings.

Front Compliance Set - 2 Piece Set
Front Lower Arm Set - 2 Piece Set
Front Shock Absorber Fork Set - 2 Piece Set
Front Spring Mount Set - 2 Piece Set
Front Upper Arm Set - 4 Piece Set
Steering Box Cushion Set
Rear Compensator Arm Set - 4 Piece Set
Rear Lower Arm Set - 4 Piece Set
Rear Spring Mount Set - 2 Piece Set
Rear Trailing Arm Set - 2 Piece Set
Rear Upper Arm Inner Set - 2 Piece Set
Rear Upper Arm Outer Set - 2 Piece Set </TD></TR></TABLE>

I see what your sayin, man. But its crazy to think that a company cant make a superior part. I have an SMSP Header, I know Honda put a lot of thought into there cast product, but I'm positive Dave(SMS) makes a superior part. Mugen Intake, stock is good, but Mugen is better. Stock pads are good but Cobalt GT's are better.... We could do this all day, reality is.....Honda is good, but they arent the best.

And to put it out there.....I paid ALOT less than $1043 for the parts shown in the pic above. I also got the arms as well, which Mugen doesnt give. Granted I dont "need" new arms, but it gives me spares now.

I love Honda like the rest of you, but every aftermarket part on my car is better than what it replaced.

walker111

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EG6-DC2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Minus trailing arm bushings and maybe a couple of others. Here is the best deal going for replace and slightly upgrading them. I know I have told a couple of people about these.

http://bulletproofautomotive.c...=4948
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You never told me about this.... Granted I was waiting for PIC's product. Al and Jim = good people I enjoy supporting them. Same reason I switched from a Toda header to SMS....Dave lives around the corner from me and I'd rather support him than Mr. Toda.

Met up with your brada last night....he should have his header monday You 97 is still lookin good

EG6-DC2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by walker111 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You never told me about this.... Granted I was waiting for PIC's product. Al and Jim = good people I enjoy supporting them. Same reason I switched from a Toda header to SMS....Dave lives around the corner from me and I'd rather support him than Mr. Toda.

Met up with your brada last night....he should have his header monday You 97 is still lookin good </TD></TR></TABLE>

I could have sworn that I have mentioned it to you. I know I gave this link to a couple of people. Unless PIC comes out with their stuff soon, I may just go the M&M Honda route. I too would rather support a company that supports us.

Yeah, the 97 is still in pretty good shape. She just has some minor little blemishes now.

walker111

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EG6-DC2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I could have sworn that I have mentioned it to you. I know I gave this link to a couple of people. Unless PIC comes out with their stuff soon, I may just go the M&M Honda route. I too would rather support a company that supports us.

Yeah, the 97 is still in pretty good shape. She just has some minor little blemishes now. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Not to me.... You might not wanna put bushing in your honda from usa because jdm bushing better and chemically balance to be the leanest meanest bad assest bushing of all. throwing aftamarket bushing in hondcra would be catasthrophic!

Hopefully PIC will bring something to the table soon...even if its just the bushings.

I still remember the first time I saw that 97, easily the cleanest Ive ever seen.