ImportReview

Well....I have been in the motor business for a bit now...and I must tell you. The price of Type-R motors is just making it not wanted. Way too expensive.

Here is the latest thing we did.

Took a 2000 Hatch. PUt an R motor in it...ran it at the track....achieved mid to low 14's.

Took that car with a H22A in it....achieved mid to high 13's. I already knew H22A was faster, but I just didn't like H22A because their were no aftermarket parts available for it.

So right now, I will focusing my attention on Prelude Motors. They are so cheap and I am building one for my hatch that is rediculous.

This after I watch a customer of mine build a H22A for very very cheap, and run a 12.0@105 in his 4 DOOR CIVIC with no fiberglass. Damn, it would have taken 8 grand to hit 12.0 with a Type-R motor. THis guys spends $1500.

So I don;t know if you guys care about Honda Prelude motors, but I will be focusing my attention on them for the next 6 months at least.

Thank you guys for the good comments and such, you have all been great, I will drop in occasionally.

FInd me on the Prelude board here sometimes.

Jeff

Ross

I just read something about this in the hybrid forum last night. The general gist of it was if you are autoxing or taking the car to the track, the H22 is a little but too heavy for a little hatch like that. However, it is much better for drag racing. It's just cheaper and easier to make power with because of the displacement. I remember the SCC 8 Great Rides stockers vs. modded feature a few years ago, and they had an SC Prelude making sick power. It did 0-60 in 5.9 and that was with street tires, in a stock Lude body. Imagine what that same engine could do in a hatch on slicks.

berkel

Hi,

How much exactly is a Prelude motor?
You said $1500 to hit 12s? That must be a used motor?

Hmmmm, if I ever blow my GSR motor, maybe I'll just slap a Lude motor in there. LOTS more TQ and sounds like they are a fair amt cheaper

Thanks,

FB

Type R 1090

That's why people get stolen ones instead of paying a little more for legit ones . Also take into account that B-series motors are direct bolt on for most Civics. A lot of people out there couldn't care less if the car ran 14s, they just want the distinction of having a Type R motor under the hood. Far too many guys out there don't have much knowledge about different Honda motors etc, all they know is that if it's Type R it's supposedly good.

slowerthanu

What do you mean "if it's Type-R it supposedly good" it is good I have had my R motor in my 1993 Integra for 1.5 year's now and I have not had a problem plus here in Utah not much in the import or domestic area has beaten me (save for some heavily massaged car's) If someone made a kit to put the H22A in the 2nd gen integra chassis I would get it but they dont. R is good enough for me

Cheeseman

It may be less expensive but H22 swaps aren't nearly as "drop in" as a B18C5 swap, right?

Cheese

FAST94GSR

I believe there is a company that makes the motor mounts for the h22 to make it essentially a drop in installation. i will agree it takes more work but the hp and tq potential right from the get go is a lot better with the lude motor.

More displacement with more power, more potential for more power.


Think of it like puttin a big block chevy into a 63 nova vs a small block chevy in a 63 nova. Which do you think will run better off the bat?

Jeff posted this merely from a financial point of view. More bang for the buck right off the bat with the h22. And he clearly states this was for drag racing not road racing so don't all of you get all huffy and puffy on him now.

Most of us racers are broke so we need more bang for the buck stuff.

Appreciate the post Jeff, keep us posted or at least keep me posted on your new developments.

MattD@Stoptech

why is it always about going straight?

yes, lets all drop heavier motors in our allready nose heavy cars.....wee... so much fun....

FAST94GSR

Hey some people like drag racing, some like road racing. Whatever floats your boat. I personally like both.

Like I already said this is for drag racing..

tegtyper

Uhh, well Type R's with stock mills run mid to low 14's.

Unless you are running at the Mount Everest Drag strip, you are doing something wrong.

Yellow Dragon

This has been argued and discussed numerous times in the Hybrid forum here.

I had my choice between the B18C1 or the H22A for the same prices. I chose the B18C1 for a number of reasons.

~ Handling/weight distribution
~ Direct swap

The H22A would've been a good choice if I wanted a *drag only* Civic hybrid. Sorry, I didn't want to sacrifice handling.

If not done correctly, the H22A can be disasterous. There is a local guy who dropped a H22A in his Del SLO and it only ran mid 14's on slicks. My hybrid runs that on street tires.

FAST94GSR

Don't the new Civics weigh almost as much as Integra's? I know they don't weigh like 2200lbs..

MattD@Stoptech

my question is:

Why does ImportReview-Atomic-whatever always have to sound like an arrogant kid? Its starting to get to me...and others i'm sure...

Its one thing about being informative and sharing information...but its quite another to act like God's gift to the car community...

My $0.02 that no one asked for

FAST94GSR

If anyone can pick up on arrogance here, its me. Takes one to know one I guess. I believe its your own perception of him that makes you feel this way. Not everyone sees his threads in the same light as you.

Why don't you just read with an open mind rather being the way you are and take it for what it is.

No one is telling you or making you change your engine out, geez chill out man. Its Friday ya know, TGIF.. Have one on me.

Some people like to disagree and argue just for the sake of doing that.

If you think Jeff is arrogant, you ought to read some of Sgts threads, that's first class arrogance there, LOL.

xtrafastcivic

i've never driven a h22a powered civic so i really don't know how nose heavy it really is but i bet in our minds we are thinking that you can barely turn with it at least in my mind it kind of seems like that but until i drive one i won't say anything about this so hint hint jeff and you guys that haven't driven a h22a powered civic shouldn't say you don't like it and it's too nose heavy but if you've driven you can talk shift about it all you want i might get flamed but that's what i was taught by my parents don't judge something that i haven't experienced if it's not illegal!!

Yellow Dragon

The H22A *doesn't* fit in the engine bay correctly. Even with the special motor mounts (Hasport, etc) it sits back towards the firewall.
http://www.hybrid.honda-perf.org/tech/badidea.html

They don't necessarily recommend the swap. I agree.


[Modified by Yellow Dragon, 2:21 PM 6/15/2001]

MattD@Stoptech

ok, i read the post, and i read it again...it still irks me...

First of all there is a reason why ITR engines are so expensive...they are technological marvels that very few non-race engines compare to. Another is their limited aviability.

Second of all, drop a V8 in a civic and it will go REALLY fast....there is no replacement for displacement...but in my book its all about efficiency

Thirdly which one of the ITR owners will drop a prelude engine in his ITR? Post messages like this in the hybrid forum where it will be of use to someone. Its like me posting contour info on here, who the hell cares.

*Rant mode off*

ImportReview

There are alot of misconceptions about Prelude motors.

#1 it is a direct bolt in. Place Racing makes mount kits for it in any year civic.
#2 The motor is 3,000 dollars LESS than a Type-R motor and $1000 less than a GS-R motor.
#3 I don't care about road racing. Thats, in my opinion, the best way to wreck your car and if you do it on the street, end up in jail with no car.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind about Type-R motors. That would be foolish and impossible. I am just telling you guys what I am doing now. Focusing my attention on Prelude motors.

And some guy told me, if I am only getting 14's from a Type-R in a 2000 hatch, I must be doing something wrong?

Actually, he is right...I am racing at PALMDALE, CA raceway. its about 3,000 Feet elevation, and the track is NEVER prepped with VHT.

And I watched over 20 Type-R's that are stock at Palmdale run no faster than 15.1. I tried and could only get 15.2 and I thought I was a great pass. if I had Englishtown, or some great track, I bet I could do about 14.7 in a type-R and thats about what it should be for close to stock.

I really don't think my posts are arrogant compared to some of the people on here. Honestly. I don't claim to be king, I just post results from tests and favor NO company. Whatever companies products comes out in the tests....thats what I like. JUN comes out on top alot, and people think I push JUN all the time...well dang, if the cams make big power and win every test...why not reccommend them?

I have 20000 dyno charts to back up any claim I make. If that makes me arrogant. Then that is your opinion, and I can't help it.

I bet that dude that called me arrogant would prefer I never post anything. O boy, then everyone would know the truth about tons of products...O wait..they wouldn't.

I don't get paid for this ****. I do it for your benifit. I lose money.

Jeff

Ross

yeah the thread I read in the hybrid forum turned into a big flame-fest...as for Jeff, he always seems to attract flames. When I was still relatively new here I noticed he took a lot of **** for his dyno sheets and conclusions about a few worshiped companies. Now, his tone may lack humility, but he is certainly not arrogant. If he were arrogant, he would be flaming others who didn't know as much as he did and letting them know how stupid they were, because, let's face it, he does know more than many of us. He did a lot of work on a lot of cars, from B16c5s to LS/VTECs, all in different scales of tuning, and didn't have to share any of it with us. What he puts up here is for our benefit - let's recognize that we've lost a valuable source of info. For those of you who might want to flame me I can assure you that all I know of Jeff is what he posts on this board. I am not a buddy of his and am only judging him based on what I've seen him do here.

MattD@Stoptech

just so we are all on the same page:

Arrogance - offensive display of superiority or selfimportance; overbearing pride

and i'm not saying that Jeff doesnt post good information...but i think there is a reason why he is a flame magnet so to speak...its the way he gets the information across that does a lot of ppl in....

itrhybrid

Guess I'll throw out my opinion as well. While I tend to lean towards the R motor (because I have one in my car) I can't deny that the prelude motor makes more torque and would be better for drag racing. However everyone that I have talked to about swaps has said that unless you are building a drag racing track only car, you won't be happy with the how the car handles on the street. Now this is just what I have heard. I have not driven a h22 hybrid as of yet.

I have to say that I am very happy with my TypeR hybrid. The motor bolted straight in and I have not had a single problem since then. With under $2000 in power adders/mods, i was able to run a 13.6 @ 104+mph. That does not include the suspension that I already had on the car (Tokiko non-adj and skunkworks coils), or the Dyno tuning. Not that there was much to tune anyway. This was on Yokohama street tires as well. The R motor is an amazing motor and there is a ton of potential with it.

James

Yellow Dragon

Jeff,

I'm not flaming you (just so you know). I'm just debating/arguing my points for NOT choosing the H22A

1. It is NOT a direct bolt in...if you need to use diff mounts. That isn't direct. Direct to be is bolt-in. Drop in and bolt up.
2. I've seen a number of B18C5 swaps for between $6-7K depending on mileage, etc. B18C1swaps generally go for $3500. That's the same I've seen for H22A swaps...$3500. These are all USDM prices. This is what I saw about 2-4 months ago when I was shopping for a swap.
3. Drag racing is fine if that's all you're doing with your H22A powered Civic. Most people (like me) daily drive their hybrids.

Basically, it was the best alternative for me to do the B18C1 swap. If I didn't own an ITR, I would've bought a wrecked ITR and swapped *EVERYTHING* I could've to my '92 CX (like Jack aka B18CXR). Then I would've had the best of everything on my hybrid IMHO.

-Todd

ImportReview

I am so GLAD you brought up that bullshit.

O man is that site WRONG.

first off, you don't use the same mounts in an ITR swap in a civic...no way.
you have to use different mounts....they are HOnda mounts...but theya re not all the same. So whats the difference in using different Honda mounts, or the better, Place Racing Mounts that are guaranteed for life?

#1 Hybrid is not a shop. They do not do swaps all day and nite. For a living. So why even talk about it?
#2 I find no evidence that they ever even owned a prelude motor.

They must have seen some whack swap from some whack company and judged it as being the "standard".

I am here to tell you.

THE MOTOR DOES NOT LEAN AGAINST THE FIREWALL. That is the biggest crock of crap I have EVER heard. I can make the motor fit leaning toward the radiator if thats what you want...I can make the motor SIT 2 inches forward, more toward the radiator if you want.

I have, count them, 5!!! H22A powered Civic hatchbacks sitting right here, right now. At my Shop in Fullerton.

Anyone want to come over with a freaking level? To measure any of them? I just got done measuring...and wait...NOT 1 sits leaning toward the firewall.

How somebody can post that on a respected web site is just rediculous.

For the same cost of a B16A motor, you get Prelude power. And you can say the car won't handle as good, because it won't...but understand this...when I took my H23/22 Vtec powered civic to the track...willow springs...I smoked the living hell out of all the 1.8 ltr civic hybrids...

why? Because coming out of the turns...and on the straight aways, the car is so damn fast that the smaller motored civics just get dealth with. And even though I am slower in the turns, the blow away power on the straights is better. Or I can just do what all the other guys do. Block you on every turn.

Damn..thanks for reminding me Yellow Dragon...I am offended and actually kinda mad at that whole area of BS.

I don't like that. Come over so I can take you for a ride. Come over and measure the motors. Sit/lean backward?

Can you think of any logical reason why it would lean backward? That makes no sense. The mounts in a prelude are level, the mounts in a civic are level, meaning parallel to the ground...so why would you take the motor, and put it in a civic....and then get not level? Baffling.

Place racing makes a direct bolt in kit.

I know I am coming across "rough" but this kind of info is upsetting. It's like me first coming out with posts bashing Toda Cams...I was stupid..Toda Cams are good...I must have been seen as an ***. very upsetting to alot of people.

Just like that area about Prelude motors.

Jeff

Yellow Dragon, I know your cool as hell bro. i know your not flaming. I know you better than that. You add good points..very good. THANK YOU!
YOu actually help me bring my points across better! Your the man!


[Modified by ImportReview, 8:47 PM 6/15/2001]

Digital-R

Mid 14's is kind of slow for a ITR/Hybrid. Not sure of the weight of the new hathes, but the older bubble backs, if you just dropped a R motor in it, it hit high 13's right off the bat.

I agree with the Chicken, the title of his topics come off very arrogant, but when I read his post they are informative and down to earth.

Ross

Chicken,

true enough. However everything is a two-way street...yin and yang if you will. From what I have seen, he does not direct anything at anyone personally...it's just as easy to glean the info from the post and not let his tone bother oneself as it is to get all huffy and flame him. An "offensive display" is only offensive if you let it offend you.


[Modified by Ross1013, 8:54 PM 6/15/2001]