James bond spyhunter smoke screen in vtec and losing oil every so often...
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From: Atlantis
James bond spyhunter smoke screen in vtec and losing oil every so often...
My first itr's heart and soul are now in my EF.
The motor has 60-something k miles on it. Hard miles. Many track days, autox's and just all kinds of 9200+ rpm abuse with lumpy high lift cams. Even a couple of 3-2 shifts at 9k without issue.
So over the past year this problem has developed where I'm not noticing power loss in vtec, but I see a ton of black smoke. It's bad.
And I'm putting in like 1/2 qt of oil every couple of weeks.
So I've noticed that if I keep it under 5k rpms it doesn't really burn any oil. But if I exploit vtec, it seems to burn the oil.
So I did some searching and some people say valve seals or valve stem seals.
I guess I'll do a compression and leakdown test.
Anything else I should do or check?
The motor has 60-something k miles on it. Hard miles. Many track days, autox's and just all kinds of 9200+ rpm abuse with lumpy high lift cams. Even a couple of 3-2 shifts at 9k without issue.
So over the past year this problem has developed where I'm not noticing power loss in vtec, but I see a ton of black smoke. It's bad.
And I'm putting in like 1/2 qt of oil every couple of weeks.
So I've noticed that if I keep it under 5k rpms it doesn't really burn any oil. But if I exploit vtec, it seems to burn the oil.
So I did some searching and some people say valve seals or valve stem seals.
I guess I'll do a compression and leakdown test.
Anything else I should do or check?
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From: Oregon
Re: James bond spyhunter smoke screen in vtec and losing oil every so often...
well valve seals and valve stem seals are the same thing and also the first place noobs like to think oil is being burnt
what usually happens from a lot of high rpm driving?
rings get hammered, cylinders go out of round {which causes oil burning with said rings} the cylinder liners distort and aren't true anymore, deck of the block goes out of true and if you pull the head you'll likely see black streaks somewhere around the head gasket. valve guides get fried and use those stem seals do too.
if spin a stock R to 9200 the VT will be fked since some degree of float has to be taking place. seats are probably hammered.
such is the nature of racing
how much oil you use per week is also worthless without mileage. typically a quart every 1500 miles is normal. quart every 1000 isn't even super bad. by the time you hit a quart every 500 miles you're on borrowed time before an exhaust valves frags or a ringland goes
what usually happens from a lot of high rpm driving?
rings get hammered, cylinders go out of round {which causes oil burning with said rings} the cylinder liners distort and aren't true anymore, deck of the block goes out of true and if you pull the head you'll likely see black streaks somewhere around the head gasket. valve guides get fried and use those stem seals do too.
if spin a stock R to 9200 the VT will be fked since some degree of float has to be taking place. seats are probably hammered.
such is the nature of racing
how much oil you use per week is also worthless without mileage. typically a quart every 1500 miles is normal. quart every 1000 isn't even super bad. by the time you hit a quart every 500 miles you're on borrowed time before an exhaust valves frags or a ringland goes
Re: James bond spyhunter smoke screen in vtec and losing oil every so often...
As raceburn mentioned it could be more serious than valve stem seals. So besides running the leak down and compression tests, i'd also check the vtec solenoid gasket and distributor o-ring. Make sure there's no oil around that area. I just had my motor rebuilt and besides my rings going bad, the shop noticed those two items were worn and leaking oil all over.
What would Chente do?
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: socali
Re: James bond spyhunter smoke screen in vtec and losing oil every so often...
Damn Ken, didn't know you sprung for the smoke screen option at the dealer.. baller.
goes to purposely overfill engine and drive on freeway... hahaha
goes to purposely overfill engine and drive on freeway... hahaha
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From: Chicago, IL
Re: James bond spyhunter smoke screen in vtec and losing oil every so often...
A cam seal leaking is more likely than a VTEC solenoid and/or distributor o-ring. Oil deposits will typically lead down to and literally on top of the head gasket. But from what OP is saying, this is definitely internal to the engine. Cases like these typically boil down to valvestem seals (cheap and quick) or piston rings (expensive and slow).
Diagnosing which one is a bit tough. Some people may say that increase oil burning at high vacuum, like during high rev engine braking, is typically indicative of poor valve seals... and increased oil burning under load is more related to piston rings. Unless you've seen dozens of cars that do this, you'll only be guessing.
Oh, and a puff of smoke on cold startup usually means valve seals.
Diagnosing which one is a bit tough. Some people may say that increase oil burning at high vacuum, like during high rev engine braking, is typically indicative of poor valve seals... and increased oil burning under load is more related to piston rings. Unless you've seen dozens of cars that do this, you'll only be guessing.
Oh, and a puff of smoke on cold startup usually means valve seals.
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Joined: Feb 2011
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From: New Hampshire
Re: James bond spyhunter smoke screen in vtec and losing oil every so often...
as others have said i would perform a leakdown test check leakage and take off your oil cap and listen for any noise coming from the crankcase. i would venture a guess that your piston rings are causing the problem, with high rev motors such as the B-series vtec motors, alot of people dont realize the complete importance of a cheap oil change, especially after running the engine hard. the oil control rings get caked up with burned oil residue and/or oil brakedown causing ring scoring which leads to premature failure. if you run the motor hard change the oil after the event, even regular driving it costs no more then $30 for a honda filter and some castrol syntec, i change my oil every 2,500 miles under normal driving and after every auto-x event.
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Joined: Oct 2001
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From: VA, USA
Re: James bond spyhunter smoke screen in vtec and losing oil every so often...
as others have said i would perform a leakdown test check leakage and take off your oil cap and listen for any noise coming from the crankcase. i would venture a guess that your piston rings are causing the problem, with high rev motors such as the B-series vtec motors, alot of people dont realize the complete importance of a cheap oil change, especially after running the engine hard. the oil control rings get caked up with burned oil residue and/or oil brakedown causing ring scoring which leads to premature failure. if you run the motor hard change the oil after the event, even regular driving it costs no more then $30 for a honda filter and some castrol syntec, i change my oil every 2,500 miles under normal driving and after every auto-x event.
After every autocross seems a little excessive to me.
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From: Atlantis
Re: James bond spyhunter smoke screen in vtec and losing oil every so often...
Hmm...
I've been running toda b and c cams in this motor since it had it's first oil change.
I found a thread by Michael Delaney recently that had some good info...
I've been running toda b and c cams in this motor since it had it's first oil change.
I found a thread by Michael Delaney recently that had some good info...
Interesting Comments by Endyn on Toda B-D Cams:
Valve problems can also be attributed to valve springs failing to control valve motion. I won't build any engine with Toda cams these days because there are no springs we've ever found that will last any length of time with them. When the springs go soft, valvetrain separation occurs and the valves typically end up being "dropped" on the seats, rather than eased to their seats by the closing ramps on the cams, thus pounding out the valves and seats.
The potential damage from weakened valve springs is that great in my opinion...at least with Todas. I also don't think their valve springs are up to the task either. If you (have) to run cams like those, you can't run springs that "fit" in an installed height that's relatively "stock". You MUST run a spring that has at least 1.400" installed height with about 68-70 psi on the seat.
We also have a tool that we've built that allows us to machine the tops of the valve guides down in height to get some much-needed clearance between the bottom of the spring retainer and the top of the valve seal. This tool fits in a collet on the Serdi machine and it not only machines the top of the guide, but it also machines the sides and step so the seal will actually sit lower. On heads running in engines with cams with .485" or higher lift, we always machine the top of the guides to maintain .060" clearance between the retainer and the seal. If you don't, oil is forced (by the retainer) through the guide, contaminating the mixture, and burning oil.
Valve problems can also be attributed to valve springs failing to control valve motion. I won't build any engine with Toda cams these days because there are no springs we've ever found that will last any length of time with them. When the springs go soft, valvetrain separation occurs and the valves typically end up being "dropped" on the seats, rather than eased to their seats by the closing ramps on the cams, thus pounding out the valves and seats.
The potential damage from weakened valve springs is that great in my opinion...at least with Todas. I also don't think their valve springs are up to the task either. If you (have) to run cams like those, you can't run springs that "fit" in an installed height that's relatively "stock". You MUST run a spring that has at least 1.400" installed height with about 68-70 psi on the seat.
We also have a tool that we've built that allows us to machine the tops of the valve guides down in height to get some much-needed clearance between the bottom of the spring retainer and the top of the valve seal. This tool fits in a collet on the Serdi machine and it not only machines the top of the guide, but it also machines the sides and step so the seal will actually sit lower. On heads running in engines with cams with .485" or higher lift, we always machine the top of the guides to maintain .060" clearance between the retainer and the seal. If you don't, oil is forced (by the retainer) through the guide, contaminating the mixture, and burning oil.
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Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Oregon
Re: James bond spyhunter smoke screen in vtec and losing oil every so often...
^ that's right and it's also why forced induction is actually more reliable when you're going for larger hp numbers. to make power reliably NA you HAVE to up the displacement. at 1.8L the itr is as optimized as it's getting if you want a 100K+ service life. none of those big bad *** came will go 100K and the bottom end gets hammered from the 9000+rpms.
with FI you can stay factory and still make a LOT more power than even the wildest street NA build
with FI you can stay factory and still make a LOT more power than even the wildest street NA build
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From: New Hampshire
Re: James bond spyhunter smoke screen in vtec and losing oil every so often...
ask any person who tracks their car, a hard day of high rev/downshifting places an extreme load on the oil. changing the oil is the cheapest and easiest way to prevent premature wear, especially if you DD the car you are driving. oil breakdown and lack of maintenance leads to almost all of the b-series mechanical problems.
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