Westrock2000

I remember someone posting a brake upgrade that used the older prelude rotors and the 2000 prelude or older V6 Accord calipers, and you had to put that washer between the caliper and the mount. I searched but couldn't find anything relevent.

Thanks

bps2799

Fastbrakes.com sells redrilled (4x100mm) prelude 11.1" rotors, which equal ITR rotors.

You can then use prelude VTEC, or accord wagon, or best yet, 98-02 accord V-6 calipers, all need some machining, w/ the V-6s needing the least and being easiest to do.

As for the washers, they are irrelevant unless you use 2-piece StopTech rotors, which are a waste for street use.

Plan on upgrading the rear brakes at the same time, or lose proper brake function thanks to a confused ABS unit, if you have ABS. Going w/ 4-piston calipers could do the same.

IN VTEC

iTrader: (3)

That happens on my car b/c I only have the 11" front upgrade.

bps2799

What calipers are you using?

IN VTEC

iTrader: (3)

Accord V6, and I still had to do a lot of filing and dremeling of the caliper bracket and brake pad retainers to get them to fit without too much scraping. This is even after Brian also modified them before sending them back.

It was like the money I spent on shipping them to him and back, and for him to pre-modify them was all for naught b/c I still ended up spending more than a day on the install...80% of the time spend trying to filing down the calipers. It still scraped after I finished, just not that much...and it eventually wore into it...so it no longer scrapes (unless it's really cold).

Westrock2000

They fit the caliper mount though? I swear there was one were you used the newer prelude calipers and a washer and it fir perfect...there was even a picture.

bps2799

Brian makes it sound easy (15 minutes each). See below.


The inside of the caliper bracket needs work over the
entire surface, but the important are is near the top
where the edge of the rotor will be. The lower apart
needs a bit of thinning, but most of that is actually
below the friction area of the rotor if that makes
sense.

What rotors did you use? The Prelude redrilled?

bps2799

That's with the StopTech rotor, like Owen_the_soy_boy has, since the pictures were from his brakes.

OEM Honda parts don't work out that nicely.

IN VTEC

iTrader: (3)

That was pretty much what I had to do. I don't know what Brian was using that it only took 15 minutes...shotgun...piledriver...Flintstones caliper-chuck beaver with some 20 grit teeth.

And, the rotors were 11" Brembo blanks redrilled to 4x100. Not sure from what vehicle. Maybe another Brembo part number would have a rotor hat that doesn't sit so deep so that it doesn't get so close to the caliper.

If I have time, I'll take it all apart again and take pics to show the trouble areas. Doesn't take too long to overhaul it.


[Modified by IN VTEC, 10:16 AM 3/26/2002]

bps2799

Got e-mail from Brian explaining every car is different, so things can be off a millimeter or two somewhere, so that you need more material off the bracket.

I'd try getting some Dykem Blue layout fluid and coating the bracket so I could see where the rotor hits it.

Still a little touchy about doing this upgrade until someone can show me it improves stopping on ABS equiped cars.

I want shorter stops, not necessarily greater resistance to fade.

Zeus

...was about to do this on the wife's grocery getter listed first below... now that people are saying that it may confuse the ABS, I don't know...

Westrock2000

how would it screw up ABS? The ABS sensor still spins the same speed. Car just slows down faster, like if it was stripped down, or have REALLY good pads on it.
This would definently be worth doing if it could done for like $300

Zeus

Thats what I was thinking, but I'm not a brake specialist...

bps2799

Not even close. ABS sensor(s) never spins at the same speed, as it is going at whatever speed the car is. When the brakes are engaged, the deceleration is measured at regular intervals. The rate parameters at which this occurs are programed into the ABS unit CPU. If this occurs too quickly, then the ABS unit reads as an error and defaults to releasing the brakes. So the key is not to have brakes which induce errors into the system w/ too much deceleration, esp at any one wheel.

Tires, pads, etc. can affect this. Some miata owners report problems just w/ using non-OEM pads. Acura systems seem more robust.

samagon

maybe I am really missing something, but unless one of the tires no longer has traction, wouldn't the all 4 wheels (considering they are all attached to the same vehicle) decelerate at the same rate?

I mean, it doesn't make sense to say that the two front wheels are decelerating faster than the real wheels, when they are attached to the same vehicle, which is decelerating at one rate of speed, therefore forcing all wheels to decelerate at a same constant rate, unless of course, the tires on those wheels lose traction (aka, stop spinning), in which case the ABS should function.

am I missing something here?

bps2799

Traction should have something to do w/ it. Remember that more weight is on the front, and that braking induces weight transfer to the front and removes apparent weight at the rear. The fronts should alway decelerate faster b/c they should have better grip w/ the weight.

The Toecutter

I have used the Big brake kit offered by fastbrakes.com for almost three years now. I've been to two local track events since the brake upgrade and have had no "confusing ABS" issues. I'm still retaining the stock rear set up and the brake balance is still very acceptable. I'm using the 96 accord wagon calipers(same as type R) with about 3mm shaved off the caliper mounting brackets as well as Porterfield r4s pads and have had no problems so far. These will mount to stock gsr front knuckles. One of the best investments have have made to the car.

samagon

I think you miss my point.

each wheel is attached to the car, so the car can be considered a constant.

each wheel is also attached to the road, through traction, and for this purpose I am going to assume that they can not lose traction, just for explanation.

now lets apply brake pressure to only one of the 4 wheels. if the wheels are both attached to the car and the road, each wheel will decelerate at the same rate as the one that has brake pressure applied, if it didn't, they would no longer be attached to the car, does this make sense at all?

so now lets go back to the reality. you have brake pressure at 4 wheels, and you can lose traction at 4 wheels. however, what I said above is still true as long as all wheels have traction, regardless of what wheels are exerting more brake force, simply because all wheels are attached to the car. so if one wheel is decelerating at one rate, each other wheel has to decelerate at that rate as well.

now, if you tell me that because you have more pots up front, that more of the pressure applied will go to the front, and under extreme braking conditions the fronts will lose traction prematurely, I can't dissagree with that, as that only makes too much sense.

explanation, assuming that you apply 10 lb of pressure before you upgrade your brakes, and your front caliper has a pot that is 6" circumference, and the rear is a 4" circumference, you then have 60% of the brake pressure applied to the front, and 40% to the rear. now lets say you now put on a caliper up front that has 2 pots that are 6" circumference. you are now applying 75% of that 10lbs to the front and 25% to the rear. it is now a lot easier for the friction trying to stop the wheels from spinning to overcome the friction of the tires trying to continue to spin.

so if you are saying that your ABS kicks in because your front wheels lose traction easier I will wholeheartedly agree, but I can't agree if you say that without losing traction, the ABS will start working, as each wheel is attached to the car, and if the car is reducing at a cirtain rate, each wheel must slow down at the same rate.

bps2799

Probably.

In this scenario, it could just as easily be that the car spins b/c the wheels w/o brake force are still rolling forward at a greater rate. Anyhow, the wheels would still be attached to the car. Think of a train wreck, or any wreck. The cars pile on top of each other b/c the front has decelerated instantaneously and the rest of the whole keeps going. It is very possible for there to be differences in deceleration in a single object/unit.

Not sure we were ever there, but that's a different story. Traction is never constant, and certainly not equal between all four wheels. The fronts will lose traction before the rest b/c they are designed to, for the sake of control.

Yep. However, the car doesn't know that it is losing traction except by taking and comparing deceleration readings from each wheel, which are compared to all other wheels' readings and adjustments made accordingly.


http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...ake_122701.htm





[Modified by bps2799, 2:11 PM 3/27/2002]

junglistgsr

BPS, you are talking a lot of speculation for no experience with this kit. I have it on my car, 11.1" up front with accord V6 calipers, EBC green stuff pads and ATE super blue fluid.....in the rear i have the 11.4" rotors with relocated stock pads and AEM pads.

the cars stops MUCH faster, much more abruptly if you want it to do so, much less brake dive and i have noticed no warpage whatsoever of my rotors....whereas with stock ones you dont even have to try to warp them.

my ABS does not get confused, it works properly and just as good as when i had stock braking stuff on the car with the same pads (EBC front for GSR calipers and AEM rear with ATE super blue). For the cost of this kit it is worth every penny and then some the difference in braking with the fastbrakes upgrades compared to stock is night and day to me.

junglistgsr

for the install, i too had to shave about 1-2mm of material off the caliper bracket but that is because the clearances on the cars are not all identical and i believe Brian at Fastbrakes takes off a bit more material to begin with now compared to what he did with the earlier kits.

bps2799

No kidding. I'm not real interested in finding out the hard way.

Anyhow, Brian no longer sells this kit, only the bigger front rotors and the rear big brake kit. DIY for the front calipers.

Zeus

Ok, I'm looking at doing the ITR/Prelude/Accord calipers/rotors on the front of the below listed GSR kid hauler... would all of you who did this mod do it again if your kids were going to be in the car during rush hour traffic in the rain?

Also, do I have to do anything other than machine 3-5mm off the mounting surfaces to make them fit under the 1998 GSR wheels?

IN VTEC

iTrader: (3)

Actually, there was this one time where I was really glad that I did the upgrade.

I came out of a little S-turn and ended up behind a Grand Prix doing like 50mph. I shouldn't have been doing 50mph in a 35mph zone, but he shouldn't have been stomping on the brakes and then turning like a one-legged llama 5 feet from the intersection without signaling either...not that him signaling would have made much difference. I was off the gas, and braking slightly, but with him braking so suddenly I had to put the pedal to the floor almost to save my ***. The ABS kicked in and the nose dove pretty hard (even for my car). I'm glad nobody was following me b/c I went from like 45mph to a dead stop in less than a couple of seconds.

11" front rotors w/ Accord V6 calipers . Hawk HPS front pads

BSQ

Yes, without a doubt.


1.) Remove 2.75mm from the brake caliper mounting bracket.
2.) Drill Prelude VTEC rotors with 4x100 bolt pattern