JdmTypeRdc2

iTrader: (1)

An LS would not be "lightly built" if your goal is 150whp, which is what a b18c1 comes factory with.

Like i said, there is a thread, and i have seen people do 170whp on a b18b, however, it is not cheap, and "light", its actually a very extensive build. At that point, and nearing 200whp, the car is no longer streetable due to the aggressive cams it would need, fuel etc.

For gods sake, going N/A in any honda will always be more expensive, and will yield less power output compared to any turbo setup. Not hating on the NA guys, because i respect all, but dollar for dollar, an all motor build is always going to be more expensive for minimal gains. Now, imagine a b18b. yea.....my point. You are starting off on a less powerful platform, not to mention to make up for the lack of VTEC, you will need a very aggressive setup.

Double Agent

I like my LS since it's a got more torque than a lot of VTEC engines, but if you really wanted to make torque a stroker kit that punches your 1.8 out to a 2.0 would be the way to go. The stroke the LS makes over a B16 or GSR isn't that huge a difference. A lot of the LS torque comes from the head. The smaller ports won't allow as much hp or top end, but the velocity of the air is sped up. The head is also the non-VTEC's main weakness, because as you get into bigger cams you require more cfm. That is where VTEC shines, the air flow capabilities of the head are really good. The other weakness of the LS is the bottom end. If you decide to build your LS you will need more rpm out of it which means needing to bore the rod bolt holes and add in some ARP rod bolts.

To really get on the topic, it's my opinion that if you are considering swapping in a VTEC motor but never further modding it you are better off throwing a little money into your LS, but if you are planning on really building something VTEC is the way to go. My DA teg has a B18B with some bolt ons and a tune. I usually run fairly even with the stock GSR and basic LS/V guys. However, I would eventually like to go VTEC and turbo.

Cripton805

150hp is a light build and even more HP. Some good cams, valve springs & retainers. 150hp is easy to achieve. Ive seen dyno's proving that.

Spawne32

iTrader: (3)

I think you have some large misconceptions about the power difference between a GSR and an LS. Since your doing everything in terms of wheel horsepower, with a 20% drivetrain loss on both cars, a b18b1 would see 118whp and a b18c1 would see 132whp. Those are hardly stellar numbers by comparison. A solid header and intake easily puts the LS within the same range of power as the GSR stock. Again, you sound like another person among many on this forum who think vtec is the be all end all of performance modifications. The only reason the GSR is better suited for power gains right off the bat is because of the slightly higher compression and bigger head, thats about where the contrasts come to an end.

racebum

there's over a second difference in the 1/4 mile between an ls and gsr

you must own an LS, you have to, you're like the LS cheerleader on here

in 99% of applications twin lobe profiles offer a major advantage. if you put cams in an LS that made power to 8000 it would idle rough and be choppy below 3000 or so. with vtec the itr cams make power to 8000 and idle like stock. bringing a stock LS up 30hp to a stock gsr is going to take more than bolt ons and 60hp to itr power levels is going to take huge cams, a lot of compression and $$

dntnedvtec

Just dropping by. I have spent enough money to know that the LS was a waste of money..Good start and a street freindly platform but still sucked NA..IMO. Just ask Frankacura. he put down 205 and 170ish with is N/A built B20 and still was unhappy. I know he spend a pretty penny as well. How? A b20 DART block.

racebum

is the most stable b series block to build on period. also can be made a 2.2L without much work. the hp on these is limited to what you can flow through the top end or in boosted apps, what the rods can handle.

Cripton805

Alright guys! found some Dyno's of some B18B's with built heads ONLY. Possibly bolt ons. I dont own these engines and claim no ownership to the picture. "to clear things up"
The first dyno needed a tune.
THESE ARE ALL WHP!!!
pretty damn good for non-vtecs.

racebum

that honestly looks more like a b20 with some work in it. if that really is a b18 i would love to see the build and how they were able to achieve that hp and tq with a 1.8L bottom end

post up the build, let's check it out

'00_GSR/R

According to Spawne32's logic an I/H/E LS should beat my I/H/E R in a strait line..... Now I have to sell the R swap and get an LS.

In reality nobody is going to leave a Vtec motor stock if they have the "modding" bug. A vtec motor is a better platform to start on, plus it has the Honda reliability with more power to start with.

Im getting my R tuned on crome here in a few weeks, and Im shooting for 185+whp (I/H/E). Its a strong motor and I think she can make me proud on the dyno. An all motor LS that makes the same power is going to be $$$$. Plus it won't be nearly as reliable. Its going to idle like ****, and will have no power down low because of the cams that would be required. All while mine is easily driveable. Plus the tranny.... LS tranny sucks for N/A...

racebum

it's do able if the weather is cold enough. a guy up in quebec pulled 189whp out of a more or less stock R which is kind of what you have. the header is the power maker there in the mod list. a skunk megapower, hytech or other race header is always worth a few hp over the stock 4-1 honda header

dntnedvtec

I hear the JDM 4-1 R header is pretty good.

You expect 185+ for your R. I say its possible.

Its funny because, I have a dyno tomorrow, and I hope to break 160 on my LS...

'00_GSR/R

"fingers crossed" Its getting cold out now so thats not a problem. My list: 3" intake with a velocity cone, TDM products tri-y header 2.5'' collector, 2.5'' test pipe, a 2.5'' greddy cat back, and other small nick nacks that don't really a whole lot.

My tuner has a really good rep for N/A honda motors so..... Just hoping.

'00_GSR/R

GL. The JDM 4-1 isn't too bad for what it is. Its OEM, and its cool you can put the heat shield for a stock look too. I have to go for a full tri-y race header to try and get close to my marker.

Spawne32

iTrader: (3)

lol i never like arguing against vtec with people because the replys are always "yeh vtec is better tho yo because you can rev higher" or "popping the vtec bro, so much better then non vtec motors" or "honda designed vtec for racing yo, why do you think it makes that noise when it kicks in"

Cripton805

I find it hard to believe why people make such a fuss when they see a dyno sheet comparing a B18B with stuff done to the head to a GSR B18C. When most of the major stock differences are in the head. No? lol

Notice how the redline is around 7k on both. I wonder how that makes a difference in driving compared to the HP of a Vtec engine. Since the Vtec engines usually have to rev up higher to get to that peak torque and HP. Would this mean that if the WHP were similar on both, the redline would make the difference in the outcome of the race? im curious. I wonder if the LS would get more torque sooner and get to the peak HP quicker? I guess it would depend on the tranny and stuff. too many factors.


yes, theyre B18B's
I didnt save the URL though, but ill continue to look. It was on Honda-Swap I believe.


Heres another thread with things done to the head. Making 160+ whp.
This guy has B16 P30 Pistons though, port polish, and bolt ons.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-motor-naturally-aspirated-44/non-vtec-b18b-dyno-integra-gs-96-a-1487624/




"ONCE AGAIN im not STATING THAT... NON-VTEC IS BETTER or VTEC IS BETTER"

The whole point of this thread, is to help people decide if the whole GSR swap is worth doing if you want to stay around 160whp and NOT having to swap out your current B18B or A out of your LS, RS, GS, etc.... and having to spend money on...

1. the whole engine swap.
2. the installation of the engine
3. the maintenance to your new "used" engine JDM or USDM. Like Water Pump, Timing belt, etc. etc.
4. pinout for vtec / or custom harness etc.
5. NO WORRY FROM COPS!!!because of an illegal engine swap.
6. etc. etc. etc.


We all know if you want high hp with less hassle, just go boost.
If you want to go on an all out build. GO all motor Vtec.

You want to just have fun and have a good WHP beating GSRs with bolt ons, go with the least expensive of all three which is the head work to the LS

mcsdude23

If the vtec motor was not all around better; why would have Honda charged more for it?

Cripton805

Just to put it out there.

Cmon. There is 600hp single cam civic wagon out there that I saw once in a thread.
I remember everyone dissing that guy claiming that it wasnt possible. Blah. Blah. Blah.

Cmon guys dont hate just because youre biased. Be open to new ideas and learn new things.

"Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions." ~Oliver Wendell Holmes


sometimes the underdog ends up winning

it all comes down to the build and money.

Cripton805

am I talking to a wall here or what?>

thats not the argument.
Stock form. Yes. Its better 100% without a doubt

anything that is in fact "NOT" stock can be superior to anything else.
Vtec or Non-Vtec


with some mods to the head, the LS can have as much potential as a GSR. Better or Worse. It would all depend on the driver.



I just hate on how people bash on things they disapprove of when theres proof, track times, videos, etc.
Just because its non-vtec doesnt mean it doesnt have potential or it cant hang OR it doesnt have the ability to even beat it.

racebum

well, we can look at the link you posted. big *** crower 404 cams and a good deal of compression. i have no clue what it comes out to be on an ls head but b16 pistons will get a gsr to 12:1 without much trouble. it's not an insane build but that's a good amount of work for an engine that would be more or less neck and neck with a stock type r. i don't think anyone is debating it's possible, just that the twin lobes of vtec give you the benefits of the large lobes on the top end and small primaries for commuting.

Cripton805

Proved my point
I know the pistons would make a good diff, but how much is the question?

Yes. About the Vtec. I remember reading an article regarding that topic. Vtec was created to give better drivability and economy on lower RPMs then it get the "kick" at midrange to high to give it the boost in power. The idle would have been shitty if they hadnt invented that and revved that high. But these nonvtecs are only revving to 7k. Dont know how that was affected. Its prolly shitty when its cold. once its warm, i dont think its a problem.

"if any of this information is incorrect, ill gladly accept your corrections"
im only quoting from what Ive read and not from personal experience.

turboskratch

In the real world, a lot of the LS engines out there are old and tired.. The appeal to having a GSR engine is not necessarily the VTEC part itself, but more or less the fact that these engines are very readily available with relatively low mileage from importers allowing people to purchase these motors and swapping them in their cars. There's less downtime in the process as well, since the work is purely just wrenching(and a little bit of grunting, cursing, and sweating).

It's kind of pointless to have work done on an LS engine these days due to its age and wear, unless you're going to spend money on the shortblock(hone/bore/deck/hot tank/balance/blueprint/new parts/etc.) to rebuild the engine to 0 miles. Most people don't have the time to be down that long to go through that type of process. The DIYers usually don't have machine shops to do it either, so it's costly and ALMOST pointless.

My original plan was to buy a complete JDM B18C swap and get rid of my tired old B18A.. The cost to rebuild the B18A from the many miles its suffered would probably cost nearly the same as getting a JDM b18c from an importer and installing the motor, so why not go with the JDM B18C? Not only I reap the benefits of this engine, but the swap comes with a better geared transmission too, along with the higher potential..

I've went a different route nonetheless and am happy with the result. My old B18A engine had a massive oil leak form the head gasket, the piston walls were warped, and there are all sorts of other problems.. It DID run strong when it was in the car though. Had I spent the time/money/labor costs on fixing up the LS engine(even to build it to make more HP), I can guarantee I would have gotten a low mileage GSR engine and transmission in there at roughly the same cost.

These are just different perspectives(opposed to numbers and processes) to why people would pick a GSR engine out of the box and pay more instead of just tuning and fixing up the LS engines. Most enthusiasts I know who want to keep an LS engine is to go turbo in the future. Most of the others who opted for a VTEC engine wanted something more reliable in the longterm.

Sure, it's great to think outside of the box... that's how LS-VTEC builds started.. lol

TwotoneC1Da9

I bought my first c1 gsr in a pretty clean da9 for $2700 with under 10k on the rebuild. Looking back I wish I could have gotten a loan for $5k for boost =/

For those who are motivated to wait for a good deal non vtec just isn't an option!!!

Cripton805

I already stated this in a previous post. Sure if your engine needs to be rebuilt or replaced. Sure. Go Vtec. Its the most logical thing to do if you want the little power boost. If you never planned on doing anything to your engine and are happy with your B18A or B. Just pick another one up for $400. Just my most logical guess.

Cripton805

I see GSR's in DA's all of the time. They usually look like **** tho lol.

If you find one thats clean and has the GSR swap already installed, just watch out for them cops.

Another option is going with a Greddy turbo on a stock LS and keeping it legal