I was talkin to fellow enthusiast today and he told me that i could drop any vtec killer cams on to my LS and it would kick performance pretty good amount. Is this true? Cams such certain TODA and some Skunk2 that when u drop in kill your vtec would be use in non-vtec b-series?

 

Your enthusiast friend doesn't really know what he's talking about. There is a reason why they are called VTEC killers. You have to have VTEC to kill. lol Hence they are not intended for use in your LS.

You need to understand how those things work. Basically you are going to remove the rocker arm assembly, and run nothing but primary lobes. It's streetable, but only after they are tuned.

 

errr why would a gsr cost more than ls..... cause of vtec.... and ur trying to get rid of it?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by davidjaii &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">errr why would a gsr cost more than ls..... cause of vtec.... and ur trying to get rid of it?</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is a serious camshaft setup. If you have the money it's not a bad choice to look into. That or a roller rocker setup.

 

perhaps i am totally wrong on this, but i thought the VTEC killer cams bascially made the car run in VTEC all the time, keeping the lobes open all the time? im probably really wrong on this though. someone care to correct me?

 

nope u are right that is the purpose of them

to keep vtec open at all times

so if u really want power this is the way to go

 

and how about your idle?

 

vtec killer cams eliminates vtec. it now operates like a engine without variable valve timing with a big *** camshaft. basically...u might compromise low end for mid and upper power, and u get a loopy idle.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krazie1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">nope u are right that is the purpose of them

to keep vtec open at all times

so if u really want power this is the way to go</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm sorry but you are dead wrong. VTEC killers (VTK's) don't keep the car in VTEC always, they completely eliminate the VTEC system. In order to use VTK's you have to install a different rocker arm assembly that completely eliminates the middle lobe (the VTEC lobe). The cams are therefore ground with no middle lobe. Also, the VTEC solenoid is removed from the engine. People may think that this system is crazy, but if you look at the design principles then it's actually very good. Without VTEC, the loss of oil pressure when VTEC engages is gone. Also, the rotating mass in the head is greatly reduced, and there is no dip in power on the powerband from where VTEC engages.

The VTK's were designed to run in a race series that doesn't allow any form of variable valve timing. Toda decided to use the VTEC engines due to the superior flow rates of the heads and the better rod ratio. The only problem with doing this is that VTEC is a variable valve timing system so running in this race series required the development of components that completely eliminated the system from the engine. They were not designed as "super-cams" and should not be treated as such. When properly tuned, they can help some engines perform better under certain circumstances, but have had mixed success rates when used in street cars.

I suggest you talk to Len, he is running a VTK setup in his car.

 

those TODA vtec killers dont play! very nice power adder!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hookonboost &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and how about your idle?</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you don't properly tune the engine and set the idle at an appropriate engine speed, then you will have idle problems.

 

you need to be running a huge compression and redline to really make use of the vtec killer cams. they are meant to reduce the rotating mass of the head to let the engine rev even higher. if you have these cams your idle will be crappy, but when racing, are you ever idling?

 

Toda Killers own souls, awesome cam, I would love to run them eventually with the Toda ITB's on my LS/VTEC. However they're designed for a VTEC Cylinderhead and only a VTEC Cylinderhead. And no I'm not really all about drag racing, and am well aware that Toda Killers are more a road race oriented cam, but thanks for the extra info on them.

 

i was going to say wtf...VTEC killer cams are used to keep VTEC open at all times...good thing you guys cleared it up for those people that thought otherwise

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kendall &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'm sorry but you are dead wrong. VTEC killers (VTK's) don't keep the car in VTEC always, they completely eliminate the VTEC system. In order to use VTK's you have to install a different rocker arm assembly that completely eliminates the middle lobe (the VTEC lobe). The cams are therefore ground with no middle lobe. Also, the VTEC solenoid is removed from the engine. People may think that this system is crazy, but if you look at the design principles then it's actually very good. Without VTEC, the loss of oil pressure when VTEC engages is gone. Also, the rotating mass in the head is greatly reduced, and there is no dip in power on the powerband from where VTEC engages.

The VTK's were designed to run in a race series that doesn't allow any form of variable valve timing. Toda decided to use the VTEC engines due to the superior flow rates of the heads and the better rod ratio. The only problem with doing this is that VTEC is a variable valve timing system so running in this race series required the development of components that completely eliminated the system from the engine. They were not designed as "super-cams" and should not be treated as such. When properly tuned, they can help some engines perform better under certain circumstances, but have had mixed success rates when used in street cars.

I suggest you talk to Len, he is running a VTK setup in his car.</TD></TR></TABLE>


I learned more about VTK's in the last 2 paragraphs than i ever have through all the times ive seen discussions about them

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ThE bEe GuY &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


I learned more about VTK's in the last 2 paragraphs than i ever have through all the times ive seen discussions about them </TD></TR></TABLE>

lol Kendall is myy hero!

 

vtk cam school of knowledge.... lol i think that was more about cams then ive learned in my life.

 

lol at all the dumb replies

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2Gen91Teg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

lol Kendall is myy hero! </TD></TR></TABLE>


*Robert De Niro voice* "The man's a fricken poet..." lol

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ThE bEe GuY &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

lol at all the dumb replies


</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kendall &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm sorry but you are dead wrong. VTEC killers (VTK's) don't keep the car in VTEC always, they completely eliminate the VTEC system. In order to use VTK's you have to install a different rocker arm assembly that completely eliminates the middle lobe (the VTEC lobe). The cams are therefore ground with no middle lobe. Also, the VTEC solenoid is removed from the engine. People may think that this system is crazy, but if you look at the design principles then it's actually very good. Without VTEC, the loss of oil pressure when VTEC engages is gone. Also, the rotating mass in the head is greatly reduced, and there is no dip in power on the powerband from where VTEC engages.

The VTK's were designed to run in a race series that doesn't allow any form of variable valve timing. Toda decided to use the VTEC engines due to the superior flow rates of the heads and the better rod ratio. The only problem with doing this is that VTEC is a variable valve timing system so running in this race series required the development of components that completely eliminated the system from the engine. They were not designed as "super-cams" and should not be treated as such. When properly tuned, they can help some engines perform better under certain circumstances, but have had mixed success rates when used in street cars.

I suggest you talk to Len, he is running a VTK setup in his car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Kendall your posts are always well thought out and written. It's a nice change from all the flames that have seemed to take over this board.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kendall &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I suggest you talk to Len, he is running a VTK setup in his car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You pretty much summed it up right there. I couldn't have explained it better myself.

VTKs are fun, but having VTECH is much more practical to the general enthusiast. These camshafts are not for the faint of heart. In order to take full advantage of them, you must build your engine with internals that can take advantage of the high lift and duration of the camshafts. This often requires a massive collection of aftermarket parts.

The camshafts generates power roughly in the 5500rpm range and continues to build power until the head peaks. Unlike traditional camshafts however, they plateau instead of dip. Thus you'll often here me say they're not "peaky" camshafts. With a head designed for maximum engine RPMs up north of 9,000+ RPMs these camshafts will be able to hold the power. Pretty crazy if you ask me. At low end, torque is comparable to a stock B16 engine. Torqueless and powereless wonder. But when they do pick up, the pick up. So where do these camshafts belong? Well, they would excell in a high speed road course.

As far as idle goes, I have rock steady idle at 1,500 RPMs. It was set at that lofty number mainly because I did not want to wait in my car until it warmed up. I have no electronic idle air control valve on my car. So 1,500 was a good compromise. In the summer time, an idle of around 900RPMs can be achieved easily.

In terms of driveabilty and reliability, well it takes some use getting used to. At first the power up top will spoil you. But if you plan on daily driving the vehicle every single day, like I do , then be ready to put up with a laggy bottom end. I find myself shifting at around 4500 rpms just to keep up with traffic.

I've haven't had a reliability issue with the car, except for that one fuel pressure regulator guage incident, which had nothing to do with the camshafts. They've been a reliable daily transport for the last 8,000 miles. Car cranks up and drives really good.

I will forewarn anyone who plans on running such a system be prepared for the extensive tuning session. These camshafts are not simple VTEC camshafts and do not have alot of base maps running around. Consider yourself one of a few in the United States to have them if you do decide to get them, so getting first hand experience from them is very, very hard.

I personally run the 305 and 295 duration on the intake and exhaust camshafts respectively. I have CTR pistons in a stock block and CTR N1 Pulley. Untuned the camshafts put down 198.9whp. Dynojet numbers. With a fairly mild tune it's putting close to 215whp and 146lb-ft of torque. I do not know what it's capable of at full tune because I've abandoned the project completely.

Good luck with everyone who wants to try them out. If you need more information or advice, please feel free to contact me.

Len

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by len &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You pretty much summed it up right there. I couldn't have explained it better myself. </TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NY-GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Kendall your posts are always well thought out and written. It's a nice change from all the flames that have seemed to take over this board.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ThE bEe GuY &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">*Robert De Niro voice* "The man's a fricken poet..." lol</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2Gen91Teg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lol Kendall is myy hero! </TD></TR></TABLE>

I feel loved.

I seriously considered running a VTK/ITB setup as I am setting up my car for fast road conditions. However the loss of practical drivability and the need for extensive tuning swayed me away from them. I instead have decided to take a more practical approach with a K20A swap and mild modifications. My reasons for doing so are simple: the car will maintain the basic drivability of a relatively stock vehicle, while producing similar horsepower numbers and a much more usable torque curve. I will be sacrificing a bit of response at high rpms as well as the ability to rev like crazy, but the K series is simply too good. If you are considering running VTK's in a street car, then I suggest you leave your options open as a similar performing (and much more practical) setup can be achieved with some thought, and a good bit of research.