ok.. here's what i need to know.\

im using a b18b bottom end, and a GSR head.

i was told that the GSR pistons would be the best, w/ the LS rods

and match that up with ARP rod bolts..

how the questions/where im stuck.

1. if i use the GSR pistons, do i need to change anything else to have them run ok? or do i need to upgrade something else for this to work?
2. do i use the GSR rings as well?

3. the rod bolts... i was told that after i install them, i need to get the rods "resized", is this true? what exactly is it? will i be ok without it? should i use GSR rods? etc...

please, any and ALL info is MUCH appreciated! i searched but couldn't find too much on this topic.. thank you very much!

 

i believe you have to modify the small end of the rod to fit in GSR pistons.

and yes you are supposed to get the big end of the rod resized after installing ARP bolts.

 

GSR pistons require modification. Use B16, or b16b pistons.

 

could i just use the GSR rods?


what would my compression be w/ the b16 pistons? are the b16 just a bolt on? because i know the GSR pistons give you 10 something compression....would the b16 pistons be too high?

i want to try to stay away from machining if possible... is it OKto keep the stock LS bolts? my engine wont be realy high HP, just a LSVTEC with some bolt ons...?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mountaindewguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">could i just use the GSR rods?


what would my compression be w/ the b16 pistons? are the b16 just a bolt on? because i know the GSR pistons give you 10 something compression....would the b16 pistons be too high?

i want to try to stay away from machining if possible... is it OKto keep the stock LS bolts? my engine wont be realy high HP, just a LSVTEC with some bolt ons...?</TD></TR></TABLE>

can't use GSR rods.

USDM B16 pistons will be like 11.3:1 compression.

some people have used the ARP bolts without machining. that may be the best budget way to do it. haven't heard of problems doing that.

 

is 11.3:1 decent for daily driving? i've heard 10.5-10.8 is good for daily driving...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mountaindewguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">is 11.3:1 decent for daily driving? i've heard 10.5-10.8 is good for daily driving...</TD></TR></TABLE>

11.3 will be fine for daily with pump gas.

 

I've never heard of gs-r pistons needing to be fitted for an ls rod. GSR and LS rings are the same so it doesn't matter either, You can't use GSR rods unless you get a deckplate, raised pin pistons or use a gsr crank. If you get rod bolts you NEED to have your rods checked/resized. Usually the rod tweaks when they press the bolts out and put new ones in. If you don't get them resized you could potentially have a rod bearing failure much sooner than you would like.

 

Slightly OT.
Why doesn't someone try this w/an LS/Vtec..

Tune the damn thing to the stock redline of the LS or close to it.
WHY won't this work?

I've read so much on LS/Vtec (which BTW buddy, theres TONS of info, your not looking hard enough) and everybody is revving it to 8 grand and having to worry about the appropriate mods that go along w/it. I know thats what the Vtec is made to do, but the LS engine IS NOT meant to do that. If you kept the stock redline, you would'nt have to worry about beefing up the bottom end at all and completely eliminate all the other machine work and parts that need to be added to do the LS/Vtec "The right way, if there is such a thing.

I have a dyno in a book ( Honda Tuning I belive) where the LS/Vtec they built made its peak power at 7200 RPM (178 hp, 135 tq). Not the stock redline, but much easier on it than spinning it to 8 grand and above.

Someone explain to me why you can't do this? This would eliminate having to tear the bottom end apart, alot of machine work and alot of money and I would think you'd still be able to get a considerable amount of power revving to 6800 or 7000. Am I just an idiot who knows nothing or is there any validity to my point?

And to make this post fit this thread, why don't you just buy ITR pistons and be done w/it? You'd have a better piston and the 11.X compression ratio

 

? anybody? this would be helpful to lots of pple if some opinions were provided.

The dyno I mentioned, they were using a B16A head off of an automatic engine. They said the cams are not as agresive on the auto as they are on the manual (auto and manual being the trannys). I researched this and this is correct. They also used ITR pistons and a CAI ( I think an aftermarket header as well, I can't remember)

Using this setup, I would think you'd be able, on a dyno w/a good tuner, adjust the peak power to be around 6900-7000, basically rendering bottom end modification of the LS pointless unless you wanted a stronger engine and had money to burn or really wanted more power so you upgrade to the ITR cam and well, you'd have no choice but to upgrade the bottom end.

This would decrease the cost of a LS/Vtec swap DRASTICALLY making it much easier, less down time while still making 40+ more wheel hp than a stock LS, putting you into the low 15's high 14's. You could port and polish the head and intake as well as match up a good I/H/E combo to up the power more while still keeping damn close to the stock redline and would have a 'reliable" LS/Vtec engine.

Any arguments to this?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mac_24_seven &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Slightly OT.
Why doesn't someone try this w/an LS/Vtec..

Tune the damn thing to the stock redline of the LS or close to it.
WHY won't this work?

I've read so much on LS/Vtec (which BTW buddy, theres TONS of info, your not looking hard enough) and everybody is revving it to 8 grand and having to worry about the appropriate mods that go along w/it. I know thats what the Vtec is made to do, but the LS engine IS NOT meant to do that. If you kept the stock redline, you would'nt have to worry about beefing up the bottom end at all and completely eliminate all the other machine work and parts that need to be added to do the LS/Vtec "The right way, if there is such a thing.

I have a dyno in a book ( Honda Tuning I belive) where the LS/Vtec they built made its peak power at 7200 RPM (178 hp, 135 tq). Not the stock redline, but much easier on it than spinning it to 8 grand and above.

Someone explain to me why you can't do this? This would eliminate having to tear the bottom end apart, alot of machine work and alot of money and I would think you'd still be able to get a considerable amount of power revving to 6800 or 7000. Am I just an idiot who knows nothing or is there any validity to my point?

And to make this post fit this thread, why don't you just buy ITR pistons and be done w/it? You'd have a better piston and the 11.X compression ratio</TD></TR></TABLE>


There's some validity. I see where you are coming from, but here's the deal. You're tearing the bottom end apart to put the pistons in, why not just install rod bolts while you have everything apart?

Also, if youre gonna make some power, you will want some lumpier cams; which will give you a much broader and peakier powerband, meaning you're gonna need to rev.

I wouldn't consider a stock bottom end revving to 7200 more reliable than a bottom end with $40 rod bolts.

You're probably going to be dissapointed if you expect 40+ whp just from bolting on a b16 head.

 

Well obviously if you were gonna change the pistons you'd upgrade the rod bolts, that would be a given. I kinda contradicted myself there didnt I?
Sorry.

Yes, you definetly have a "cool factor" if you can rev to 8 grand especially when the stock tach redlines at 6800 Might open an eye or 2 if your passenger didn't know what you had done to your car.
But remember, w/the automatic head, the cams aren't as aggressive and they redline at 7200..Thus basically hindering any temptation to rev higher. Also, in my situation, I think an Integra w/an approx. 200 hp engine would be a blast to drive. I'm not lookin for a 250 whp engine.

I'm so happy I've dwelled on this a lil bit. I was dieing when I priced out the LS/Vtec swap w/all the machine work and downtime, and it costing $2000+.
You should be able to do it this way, easily under $1000.00, doing to work yourself of course.
I'll do more research on this particular aspect of the LS/Vtec swap and post what I find later on.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mac_24_seven &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well obviously if you were gonna change the pistons you'd upgrade the rod bolts, that would be a given. I kinda contradicted myself there didnt I?
Sorry.

Yes, you definetly have a "cool factor" if you can rev to 8 grand especially when the stock tach redlines at 6800 Might open an eye or 2 if your passenger didn't know what you had done to your car.
But remember, w/the automatic head, the cams aren't as aggressive and they redline at 7200..Thus basically hindering any temptation to rev higher. Also, in my situation, I think an Integra w/an approx. 200 hp engine would be a blast to drive. I'm not lookin for a 250 whp engine.

I'm so happy I've dwelled on this a lil bit. I was dieing when I priced out the LS/Vtec swap w/all the machine work and downtime, and it costing $2000+.
You should be able to do it this way, easily under $1000.00, doing to work yourself of course.
I'll do more research on this particular aspect of the LS/Vtec swap and post what I find later on. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Making 200whp is nearly impossible without revving higher than 7200 with large cams. You're looking at 140-150 whp with just a basic b16 head swap, i/h/e. Hell, I'd be happy if my b20vtec made 180whp.

Back to the original poster, go for it. Swapping the head will yield a funner motor than a stock LS, but if you could save a little bit more, I would recommend waiting and doing it right. good luck

 

I was originally planning on doing an LS/VTEC setup untill i calculated the cost and the minor hp gain even if you do it right. My advice would not to do it... for 2000$ you could build your own custom turbo kit on the b18 block because it has lower compression. If you were still wanting to do it i would recommend a girdle... the golden eagle kit would be good. It comes with Golden Eagle girdle, ARP main studs, custom step-down dowels, GSR oil pickup, and GSR windage tray for a complete setup, 400$, but will be able to handle the higher revving engine safer.

Also i would just go with a b18c or b16 rod and pistion there made to be able to handle the high revs of vtec, whereas the ls arent.

Golden-Eagle makes a number of kits and things you should check out for ls/vtec like the girdle kit and the oil lines, fittings, and pre-drilled gasket.

Hope this helps, later.

 

on average 94 octane will begin detonation around 10.5.1 if i remember correctly

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 88beategra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">on average 94 octane will begin detonation around 10.5.1 if i remember correctly</TD></TR></TABLE>

You remember incorrectly. I run 11.5:1 on 91 octane.

 

u should put in some ITR pistons, not ls. and just have to have a machine shop, shave part of the inside piston, to get the rod to fit, also, get the beefy arp rod bolts, not the smaller ones, and dont forget a vtec oil pump.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Toadfart &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Making 200whp is nearly impossible without revving higher than 7200 with large cams. You're looking at 140-150 whp with just a basic b16 head swap, i/h/e. Hell, I'd be happy if my b20vtec made 180whp.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm talking flywheel HP, sorry, which is about what that engine makes if its dynoing 175 to the wheels, give or take a few ponies here or there.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ForceFed_Motorsports &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">for 2000$ you could build your own custom turbo kit on the b18 block because it has lower compression.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you don't rev it to the moon and if you shop around and are paitient, you could do this for under $1000.00 and have something that, in my eyes, is MUCH less complicated and easier to maintain than a turbo engine.


I apologize for getting off topic, didnt mean to hijack. But I guess it is somewhat relevant to the original topic

 

"Back to the original poster, go for it. Swapping the head will yield a funner motor than a stock LS, but if you could save a little bit more, I would recommend waiting and doing it right. good luck"

i plan on doing it right.
here's the questions i want answered, and thank you for all the other help as well, its much appreciated:

1. what pistons would be a good choice to fit onto the LS rods, or what better rods would fit onto the LS crank with no issues/ machining at all?

2. what exactly IS resizing the rods?

3. is there any way around machining the bottom end, while still being able to reinforce it (with pistons and bolts)?

4. why do i NEED to get the rods resized if im just switching bolts... ALSO, can i just use rod bolts off another vtec engine instead? such as type r, gsr, etc...? and if so, will i need to do any machining with that?

if i think of more questions i will definately ask... the only reason i ask so much is i need to know what im doing so i CAN do it right. i know the LSVTEC is a VERY reliable and quick engine when built RIGHT, and it will be used as a daily driver/and for trips, and maybe a time or 2 at the track.. im not looking to impress anyone, or to rev to 8000, just some more power.
i j ust need those quesitons answered lol

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mac_24_seven &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If you don't rev it to the moon and if you shop around and are paitient, you could do this for under $1000.00 and have something that, in my eyes, is MUCH less complicated and easier to maintain than a turbo engine.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

$1k is about what I cam up with for a VERY buget LS/VTEC. Basically you buy a Gen1 B16 longblock, use the complete head, IM, and pistons from the motor. Sell a few left over parts. Buy rod bolts $40 and head studs $120 (or cheaper for stock bolts). Piston rings for good measure.

How much would it cost to get the big end of the rod re-sized after ARP bolt installation?

also, you are correct. If you look on importreview, all the B16 cammed lsvtec's peak about 7000-7200. Even with a manual engine the extra displacement will cause the engine to peak lower.

 

i was guna run usdm SI piston (for sale with 17k andnew rings in box) in my DD but then i scored some new CTR pistons .025 over already machined with LS rods and new bearings and rings for 140 bucks. so those are going on my LS/Vtec, with the SI head. and i was told that even with that comp. i could rum on pump gas if its tuned for it at the time, even tho im just guna buy a couple 55gal drums of 120 oct and run that, they said as long as i stay 100oct and over ill be fine for DD.

 

itr piston are bad *** OEM pistons, and they are good, if u cant afford the ctr ones. like me

 

itr pistons wont fit on LS rods without machining though.

 

Man, I'm glad I didn't have this much trouble with my LS/VTEC build. I did tons of research and price matching before my build. Just look at articles in mags and on HT. There was a good article in a mag with a Neon on it. Can't remember issue though. They gained 29hp with LS/VTEC. Nothing special at all.

Just find a nice head. Change your bearings. Get some pr3 pistons. ARP rod bolts and head studs. All set. Cheap LS/VTEC. I wouldn't worry about taking it to 8000rpm with that set up. Typically you wouldn't w/out rod bolts.

 

but, do the rods still need resized?

also, i need a straight answer, first, what pistons are pr3 from?

second, what pistons will bolt up directly to the ls rod bolts, w/out ANY modification to the pistons/ rods, or block?

and what about the resizing still? lol

and i plan on getting new OEM ls bearings just to make sure