whats up guys, im kinnda new to honda tech
im bulding an all motor ls because every one in my town thinks its a dumb idea and i want to prove to every one in my tow it can be dun and put down some decent times and my question is what compression pistons should i run, my buddy has a set of brand new JE 12.5 compretion pistons im thinking about buying, any help would be appriciated, thanx!!!!!!

 

From what I can tell, it's not worth getting the block honed and new piston rings fitted if you are going all-motor. You can just get a B18C1 and sell the B18B1 and come out with more power and less money spent.

 

dont disregard him from a all motor ls, yo bro, if u want a all motor set up, you should get some pr3 pistons(b16), either a gsr or b16 or type R water pump and oil pump, get some crower cams. and the rest are up to you, there are people that run all motor ls, and are able to take out vtec, so it can be done, but for the b18c route it would be easier but y spend 1000+ for a new block, while u can put that into your b18b, and be faster!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by oldtegskoo90 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">y spend 1000+ for a new block, while u can put that into your b18b, and be faster!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Really?

 

look up some of hybrid_vtec post he has a ls not in a teg though makin 170 whp

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elrandeeto &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">look up some of hybrid_vtec post he has a ls not in a teg though makin 170 whp</TD></TR></TABLE>

How much $$$. You gotta make more on the LS just to make up for the $hitty LS tranny!!!

 

make sure you have good air and fuel support, you can do this first,

get a good (dosn't mean expensive) air intake

get a high flow fuel pump, like walbro 255

get some bigger injectors 330-440

get some tuning so this all runs correctly

this should be around $500

then you you should do the pistons, headers, and exhaust ~ $1000

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jasonw &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

How much $$$. You gotta make more on the LS just to make up for the $hitty LS tranny!!!</TD></TR></TABLE>

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1124823 lol, i think he said he spent like 2000 on the whole build even with a gsr tranny with lsd.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rkrone &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">make sure you have good air and fuel support, you can do this first,

get a good (dosn't mean expensive) air intake

get a high flow fuel pump, like walbro 255

get some bigger injectors 330-440

get some tuning so this all runs correctly

this should be around $500

then you you should do the pistons, headers, and exhaust ~ $1000
</TD></TR></TABLE>

his stock injectors and fuel pump should be ample to run a all motor app. tunings the most important part

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by projectTeG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1124823 lol, i think he said he spent like 2000 on the whole build even with a gsr tranny with lsd.</TD></TR></TABLE>

He got 170. There's no way in hell you're going to get:

-Mild PnP
-Crower 404 w/ JG Cam Gears
-Crower Valvesprings
-Ferrea SS Valves
-Cometic Head Gasket
-Skunk2 IM
-64mm TB
-Modified Iceman intake
-JDM ITR 4-1 header w/ 2.5" collector
-2.5" custom piping and exhaust
-P30 B16 Pistons
-GSR Tranny w/ LSD
-Exedy Flywheel
-Clutch Specialties 6-puck clutch
-SAFC2
-Chipped P75

with labor, tuning, and the 18 dyno runs he did for under $2,000.

 

or maybe 2500, but still thats pretty good numbers

 

look at the list he only ugraded the head, and add b16 pistons. i just wouldnt get a b18c block and then build it up, and be out of even more money. you can just boost and kill that N/A setup anyday, for less money 2

 

i bought a ported ls head and a set of b16 pistons the head comes with b20 cams, i think my next item is going to be an APEXi power FC ems. i have a set of unorthadox pullys and skunk 2 cam gears and im tinking about a Quaif lsd.

 

i would say check out non-vtec.com and also talk to dave hickman, his website is dhrengines.com.............

I think you find everything you need there...........

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jasonw &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

He got 170. There's no way in hell you're going to get:

-Mild PnP
-Crower 404 w/ JG Cam Gears
-Crower Valvesprings
-Ferrea SS Valves
-Cometic Head Gasket
-Skunk2 IM
-64mm TB
-Modified Iceman intake
-JDM ITR 4-1 header w/ 2.5" collector
-2.5" custom piping and exhaust
-P30 B16 Pistons
-GSR Tranny w/ LSD
-Exedy Flywheel
-Clutch Specialties 6-puck clutch
-SAFC2
-Chipped P75

with labor, tuning, and the 18 dyno runs he did for under $2,000.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well with the cost of a B18b block and head and GSR tranny and the part list above I have spent around $2500 total. That totalis a lil higher b/c I just had ARP rod bolts pressed in, installed new piston rings, ACL bearings, ported the head myself, had a race valvejob done, and milled the head .025". All that extra only cost me $320! Awaiting to get tuned(with Crome this time), so that will cost some more money. However not bad for around $3K into a build.

The key to saving money on a build is doing a lot of searching for parts, finding a few hookups, and building the motor yourself.

I mainly auto-x but I got out to the track on my earlier setup and ran a 13.53 1/4 mile, with a 2.4 60' time. I have no traction at all, but I am working on that.


I say if you want to do it, do it. Be different and let the doubters doubt, what they dont know wont hurt them!


www.nonvtec.com is a good site to search to view others setups.

 

That's not bad and there is some apeal to being unique. I guess it breaks down to if the guy can find the same prices and do as much of the work himself....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by all-go-ls &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i bought a ported ls head and a set of b16 pistons the head comes with b20 cams, i think my next item is going to be an APEXi power FC ems. i have a set of unorthadox pullys and skunk 2 cam gears and im tinking about a Quaif lsd. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Look into chipping your ECU and setting it up to datalog and run Uberdata and Crome. (Far cheaper than Apexi Power FC). If needed I work in a calibration lab and can do it for you at one of the 2M stations.

For cam gears, contact JG Engine Dynamics, I bought mine for $129 a pair shipped.

 

building a N/A LS setup is very easy. some friends and myself were able to build a 202whp LS setup some time ago. let me see if i can remeber the parts correctly:

b20z pistons
ls block bored 84mm and milled .xxx(forgot by how much)
knife edged and balanced crank
gsr oil/water pump
pnp ls head(pnp by me)
crower valve train
crower 404
dc 4-1 header
skunk2 IM (port matched by me)
bbk 65mm tb
custom ram air intake
ITR tranny
act prolite flywheel
custom 2.75" exhaust(no cat/resonator)
aem cam gears
aem pulleys
tuned with chrome

i think that's all? but yeah it was well over $3000 for everything...was it worth it? well i don't know but it definately was something different.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jasonw &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That's not bad and there is some apeal to being unique. I guess it breaks down to if the guy can find the same prices and do as much of the work himself....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Very true!

I still find it more practical than going GSR in his case, b/c say you drop $3K for a GSR swap, and have to spend another $3K in parts to make 200whp. Thats $6K into a build. For $2.5K he can have a very nice turbo setup on the LS, or he can spend about $2.5 to 3K and build a 200whp LS/Vtec. To me it is all about being cost effeicient when choosing the motor. And LS parts are super cheap compared to Vtec parts b/c there is not a lot of demand for the LS parts.

 

Well, with a $6K budget, what I would rather do though is:

1. Sell the B18B for $500
2. Get a JDM ITR for $4,500
3. spend $2,000 on bolt-ons and have better reliability/drivability...

 

you guys, listen to what he is asking

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by all-go-ls &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im bulding an all motor ls because every one in my town thinks its a dumb idea and i want to prove to every one in my tow it can be dun and put down some decent times</TD></TR></TABLE>

if you do some headwork + tuning you will see significant gains, I PROMISE. There is a way to modify a type R manifold to an LS head, just do some research and you will find it.

as for headwork, plan on spending a lot. cams + valvtrain + porting and milling. then i would get hondata and then tune the biznatch. i cant tell you any numbers, because i dont know from experience with non vtec setups (although im curious to start one of my own), but i will tell you the facts... HEADFLOW + COMPRESSION = POWER (assuming you add the appropriate amount of fuel)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dcb16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you guys, listen to what he is asking

if you do some headwork + tuning you will see significant gains, I PROMISE. There is a way to modify a type R manifold to an LS head, just do some research and you will find it.

as for headwork, plan on spending a lot. cams + valvtrain + porting and milling. then i would get hondata and then tune the biznatch. i cant tell you any numbers, because i dont know from experience with non vtec setups (although im curious to start one of my own), but i will tell you the facts... HEADFLOW + COMPRESSION = POWER (assuming you add the appropriate amount of fuel)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Of course. Everyone thinks that Vtec means more power. Not really though! Look how other engine types make power without it. The Vtec heads just flow better out of the box. If Vtec was so wonderful then why do so many disable it to run Vtec Killers?

Basically I look at it like pick your poison and go from there.

For the LS, I say go with B16 or CTR pistons, find a cam that will compiments it and have headwork done accordingly to match your setup. Same goes for bolt ons. The endyne site(www.theoldone.com) has a write up on how to modify an ITR IM to fit an LS. I run a Skunk2 myself(similar to ITR), but I want to try a B16 IM b/c if you look at dyno charts they seem to produce a better powerband for cars peaking power under 8K while the ITR's do better beyond 8K.

Secondly hondata is overrated, you can setup your ECU to do everything hondata does for less than $50 adn run a free ware program like Crome or Uberdata.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid_vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Of course. Everyone thinks that Vtec means more power. Not really though! Look how other engine types make power without it. The Vtec heads just flow better out of the box. If Vtec was so wonderful then why do so many disable it to run Vtec Killers?

Basically I look at it like pick your poison and go from there.

For the LS, I say go with B16 or CTR pistons, find a cam that will compiments it and have headwork done accordingly to match your setup. Same goes for bolt ons. The endyne site(www.theoldone.com) has a write up on how to modify an ITR IM to fit an LS. I run a Skunk2 myself(similar to ITR), but I want to try a B16 IM b/c if you look at dyno charts they seem to produce a better powerband for cars peaking power under 8K while the ITR's do better beyond 8K.

Secondly hondata is overrated, you can setup your ECU to do everything hondata does for less than $50 adn run a free ware program like Crome or Uberdata.</TD></TR></TABLE>

he's right...
to a certain extent.

honda designed vtec for the street. low end economy and top end hp. vtec does give you more power for a streetable car. but if ur going all out race, then you dont need it because your gonna be at 5k+ all the time.

vtec killer is designed for racing. terrible idle, very little torque, but incredible top end hp.

hondata is the same thing as uberdata and crome. they used to be extremely different, but now they all have RTP, datalogging, 2 step rev limiters, launch control, ect ect. But the only way you will get it for under 50bones is if you are tight with someone who has a burner and all the software and a laptop. if not, all that **** is expensive (and that is not even including the hardwar needed to install the ZIF socket and resistors in the PCM). just get a chipped ecu and go to a decent tuner and have them burn you a program. (and when i say go to a tuner, im talking about on the dyno, not some f*ckin ebay chip)

 

sorry about all that, got way off topic...

but to answer your question. if you install some CTR's and mill the head to get your desired CR. that might be cheaper than buying rods and pistons. the reason why you have to buy rods is because almost all aftermarket pistons are full floating type (locking wrist pins). where as to honda has semi floaters, you have to take the pistons to a shop and they press the wrist pins out with a machine. not only that, its less rotoating mass because ls rods are considerably lighter than any aftermarket.

this is what i would do if i were you:

shotpeen ls rods
arp rod bolts
ctr pistons
arp headstuds(optional)
modified skunk2 mani
ported ls head
cams to match your port job (you should get your head flow tested b4 and after. and if you have the money do your IM as well)
bolt ons to match appropriately

gl

let us know what you end up deciding