gibbsintegra

I have a turbo gsr and want to lose ac. If I take the ac belt off of the crank pulley will this cause problems? If so what should i do?

Cliffjumper2

your title question and your thread question are a bit different from each other.

check out this thread, has a lot of info regarding the crank pulley:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1252468

Tim2179

iTrader: (2)

You can take the A/C belt off and you'll be fine.


As for you question in the topic title - the crank pulley on the B-Series motors is a harmonic damper - so named because the rubber material inside the pulley dampens harmonic vibration of the crankshaft by converting the vibrations into heat.

Do not get a lightened pulley (UR) that has no damper - this will cause your bearings to wear very quickly.

If you do indeed want to go turbo, you will want to look into an aftermarket crank pulley - such as the ATI Super Damper or Fluidampr. Both make pulleys for street and race set-ups - the street pulleys allow you to run A/C and PS.

gibbsintegra

sorry about the mix up i am a noob, i was just curious about both

gibbsintegra

thanks for the info that was exactly what i was looking for ...........i already have gone turbo

Cliffjumper2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tim2179 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Do not get a lightened pulley (UR) that has no damper - this will cause your bearings to wear very quickly.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

how quickly is "very quickly"?

no seriously, I'd like to know...might swap it back out from my teg. I've had it on for nearly 10,000 miles, and the car still runs strong....I don't rev beyond the stock rev limiter, and like some of the info in the links I posted above says, not until 9,000 rpms would you have to worry about it causing damage.

Then again, do you have personal experience with this on a daily driver/some weekend track use car?

Tim2179

iTrader: (2)

Bearing wear depends on a lot of things, but basically it depends on your HP and RPM.

If you increase HP & RPM beyond stock levels, certain engine components will wear faster than normal - and your bearings and crankshaft are not exempt from this.

Without proper damping, the torsional vibrations on your crank will cause the bearings to wear faster due to the increased friction from your crank - so the more HP and the more RPM you have - the faster this occurs - so I can't say 'exactly' how long the bearings will last.

With worn bearings, you will have less efficient lubrication of the crank and bearings which will lead to loss in power. A lot of people think they are making power using UR pulleys - but that comes at a price - a loss of reliabilaty and durabilty.

Some poeple feel that an aftermarket pulley isn't necessay or worth the price. Well for most mild set-ups this is true, but a damper's purpose isn't to make power (even though they can free up HP) - it is to keep your investment from turning into a pile of junk.

I'm not sure how much a Fluidampr weighs, but I do know an ATI Damper is lighter then the stock unit - I've had one on my car for 10k miles and I work for ATI also. Our dampers are designed and developed for racing applications and are found on most engines used in NHRA drag cars (too many to name), ALMS endurance cars (Corvette 1-2 at Le Mans this year), as well as NASCAR (including Toyota's NASCAR craftsman truck motors) - something fluidampr and Unorthodox Racing can not claim.

Cliffjumper2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tim2179 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm not sure how much a Fluidampr weighs, but I do know an ATI Damper is lighter then the stock unit - I've had one on my car for 10k miles and I work for ATI also.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ah I see

no, just kidding...good info, thanks

I've read several articles as posted in the other thread, and have heard from a bunch of people, but most of them are running higher rpm's with greater hp than stock....so it's hard to apply it to me. My motor is stock with just bolt ons and not even a catback.
I'm going to look into a performance rebuild this summer...I'll take a look at ATI, thanks
where can I find the ati one you speak of, and how much do they run for?

LSvtec03

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tim2179 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Do not get a lightened pulley (UR) that has no damper - this will cause your bearings to wear very quickly.</TD></TR></TABLE>
i have never seen any conclusive evidence on this. the oem ctr n1 pulley does not have a damper, and tons of people run this with no reported problems.

Tim2179

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LSvtec03 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have never seen any conclusive evidence on this. the oem ctr n1 pulley does not have a damper, and tons of people run this with no reported problems.</TD></TR></TABLE>

UR = Unorthodox Racing - not dampened.

CTR pulley is a dampened pulley and I never said it wasn't.

And yes, most people aren't making enough power to require an aftermarket pulley, bet get upwards of 300HP it's not worth risking your investment by not running one.

Also, if there were tons of people having problems, I doubt they would call up LSVtec03 and tell you about them - but they do call my company.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">where can I find the ati one you speak of, and how much do they run for? </TD></TR></TABLE>

We have the B-Series street damper for $339 and that's good for up to 500HP - and features a removable alternator pulley.

The race dampers are good for up to and beyond 500 HP are $399 and we have different versions based on how much HP and RPM you make - the cool thing about these dampers is that they are rebuildable by us, so if you upgrade you set-up for more HP, we can rebuild it for you and you wont have to buy a whole new damper. Skunk2 is using our damper on their K-Series drag car, but as for now I don't think we are offering that for sale. http://www.skunk2.com/raceShop....html

You can find out more stuff on our website http://www.atiracing.com


Modified by Tim2179 at 5:28 PM 8/31/2005

Cliffjumper2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tim2179 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Also, if there were tons of people having problems, I doubt they would call up LSVtec03 and tell you about them - but they do call my company.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

no, but they would post it up in these forums on HT.

temp

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Cliffjumper2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

no, but they would post it up in these forums on HT.</TD></TR></TABLE>

agreed, from what i remember honda engines are internally dampened/balanced

Tim2179

iTrader: (2)

internally balanced and externally balanced engines both use dampers - there are not "internally dampened" engines - balanced and dampening are two entirelly different things. Balance is friction reduction - dampening is energy absorbtion. Once again, honda crank pulleys ARE DAMPENED - there is rubber inside there.

Cliffjumper2

so then according to your answers, my motor should be fine with the unorthodox pulley, though it's really not improving my performance, being that it is not a high hp motor or taking the rpm's past the stock rev limiter...correct?

If this is not right and that UR pulley damages all motors it goes on, then why would they still have it on the market?

LSvtec03

ctr n1 pulley (as you can see, not dampened)

normal dampened pulley

Tim2179

iTrader: (2)

I stand corrected - I assumed the CTR pulley was the same as the ITR pulley which IS dampened.

Here's one person's experience with a CTR pulley:
https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=2

As long as people will buy UR pulleys - they will sell them - it probably costs them only a few dollars (if that) to manufacture since it's basically a single piece of metal with some grooves machined into the outside. Just b/c something is bad doesn't mean people wont buy it - Let's not forget everyone knows cigerettes aren't good for you but they are still being made and people still buy them.

As far as using a UR pulley - I wouldn't use it, but you may be ok. The more you raise your HP and RPM, the higher the risk of permanent engine damage due to the increase wear & abuse.

temp

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tim2179 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I stand corrected - I assumed the CTR pulley was the same as the ITR pulley which IS dampened.

Here's one person's experience with a CTR pulley:
https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=2

As long as people will buy UR pulleys - they will sell them - it probably costs them only a few dollars (if that) to manufacture since it's basically a single piece of metal with some grooves machined into the outside. Just b/c something is bad doesn't mean people wont buy it - Let's not forget everyone knows cigerettes aren't good for you but they are still being made and people still buy them.

As far as using a UR pulley - I wouldn't use it, but you may be ok. The more you raise your HP and RPM, the higher the risk of permanent engine damage due to the increase wear & abuse.</TD></TR></TABLE>


fact of the matter is you are slandering another company with no PROOF that this magical pulley of yours works and that the UR pulley doesnt. i have NEVER not EVER seen one case where a UR crank pulley has caused someones engine to wear prematurely, hell we pulled apart an engine w/ a UR crank pully and inspected the bearings after 30k of use (no matter what someone says, if their car has mods they beat on the ******* thing) and the bearings looked brand new.....now here is where you come in saying "oh well that was a one time thing blah blah blah". again without PROOF and i mean clear evidence that a UR pulley was the culprit i will have to disagree with you

EG_H2B

I have seen Super thin pulleys mess up a motor. if its tooo thin it can act like a tunning fork and it will cause more vibration. But this does not mean that you need a dampened pulley. as long as its engineered right they work great. I have had one on 3 of my motors and NEVER had any problems.

LSvtec03

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tim2179 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Here's one person's experience with a CTR pulley:
https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=2
</TD></TR></TABLE>
i find it hard to believe that over the course of one weekend, someone destroyed their oil pump gears because of putting on a ctr pulley, and not some other pre-existent problem that he may not have known about. how can people badmouth the n1 pulley, and back up a lightened flywheel? what's the difference?

temp

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LSvtec03 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i find it hard to believe that over the course of one weekend, someone destroyed their oil pump gears because of putting on a ctr pulley, and not some other pre-existent problem that he may not have known about. how can people badmouth the n1 pulley, and back up a lightened flywheel? what's the difference?</TD></TR></TABLE>


agreed......HELLO the turbo alone means you know he is beating the **** out of the motor

temp

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JohnShiwota &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have seen Super thin pulleys mess up a motor. if its tooo thin it can act like a tunning fork and it will cause more vibration. But this does not mean that you need a dampened pulley. as long as its engineered right they work great. I have had one on 3 of my motors and NEVER had any problems. </TD></TR></TABLE>

word, many MANY people run them on RX7's (FC's anyway) without any problems. and RX7s are problematic as it is

Tim2179

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LSvtec03 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> how can people badmouth the n1 pulley, and back up a lightened flywheel? what's the difference?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Every time a cylinder fires, the force twists the crankshaft. When the cylinder stops firing the force ceases to act and the crankshaft starts to return to the untwisted position. However, the crankshaft will overshoot and begin to twist in the opposite direction, and then back again. Though this back-and-forth twisting motion decays over a number of repetitions due to internal friction, the frequency of vibration remains unique to the particular crankshaft.

This motion is complicated in the case of a crankshaft because the amplitude of the vibration varies along the shaft. The crankshaft will experience torsional vibrations of the greatest amplitude at the point furthest from the flywheel or load.



http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=5

omiehomie

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by temp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
fact of the matter is you are slandering another company with no PROOF that this magical pulley of yours works and that the UR pulley doesnt. i have NEVER not EVER seen one case where a UR crank pulley has caused someones engine to wear prematurely, hell we pulled apart an engine w/ a UR crank pully and inspected the bearings after 30k of use (no matter what someone says, if their car has mods they beat on the ******* thing) and the bearings looked brand new.....now here is where you come in saying "oh well that was a one time thing blah blah blah". again without PROOF and i mean clear evidence that a UR pulley was the culprit i will have to disagree with you</TD></TR></TABLE>

well f*cking put there my man i also have a UR crank pulley on my 98 gsr and the thing runs like a f*ckin champ and have not had any problems what so ever for a while now

temp

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tim2179 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Every time a cylinder fires, the force twists the crankshaft. When the cylinder stops firing the force ceases to act and the crankshaft starts to return to the untwisted position. However, the crankshaft will overshoot and begin to twist in the opposite direction, and then back again. Though this back-and-forth twisting motion decays over a number of repetitions due to internal friction, the frequency of vibration remains unique to the particular crankshaft.

This motion is complicated in the case of a crankshaft because the amplitude of the vibration varies along the shaft. The crankshaft will experience torsional vibrations of the greatest amplitude at the point furthest from the flywheel or load.



http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=5 </TD></TR></TABLE>


then how come people knife edge their crank ALL THE TIME without any issues? that is removing material from the crank that would help "dampen" the vibrations on the crankshaft as well. not saying that you are wrong, just saying there has never been enough ACTUAL evidence to prove either theory.

LSvtec03

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tim2179 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Every time a cylinder fires, the force twists the crankshaft. When the cylinder stops firing the force ceases to act and the crankshaft starts to return to the untwisted position. However, the crankshaft will overshoot and begin to twist in the opposite direction, and then back again. Though this back-and-forth twisting motion decays over a number of repetitions due to internal friction, the frequency of vibration remains unique to the particular crankshaft.

This motion is complicated in the case of a crankshaft because the amplitude of the vibration varies along the shaft. The crankshaft will experience torsional vibrations of the greatest amplitude at the point furthest from the flywheel or load.



http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=5 </TD></TR></TABLE>
....touche`[/white]
but even so, i still think that this is an extreme-case scenario.