Whiterice-gsr

i think he means he cant read it because of quality not because of unwillingness. if u blow it up 4 or 5 times its much easier to read.

TheRealTegger

Adobe Reader has a zoom function.

1) Let your cursor hover at the bottom of the screen, just above the bottom edge, then click the "+" symbol in the gray menu that materializes, or
2) right-click and choose "Marquee zoom", which allows you to draw a box around the part you want to read.

el crapitan

there was no explanation in that pdf at all. just a vague installation guide.

i actually looked up embedment, and my findings stated that it was an occurrence in which the surface of the back side of the head becomes flattened, causing the fastener to lose preload.
i dunno. that's what i found. quite the opposite of what you were stating though

again, i fail to see any explanation thus far.
but i must refute that statement. i don't accept what any engineers say as set in stone. that would be blind faith. that's not to discredit them, by any means. but we should always question; regardless of where the answers come from

TheRealTegger

This is what it says in the PDF I referenced earlier:Note that they say to the threads, not to the washer.

As I said before, I trust Honda's engineers before I trust myself. They are not perfect, of course, but they're far more perfect than you and I are.

el crapitan

^^you're going to base your conclusion off of that single word on that single sentence of a news letter? i'm sorry, but it will take a whole lot more than that to convince me. a couple technical service bulletins or something maybe.
and you know who figures out technical service bulletins most of the time? technicians. that's right. regular joe scmoes figuring out engineering flaws. and there are plenty of them, believe me. like i said, it's not to discredit them by any means. but don't discredit yourself. they are human and are susceptive to questioning

Dogginator

I had to use a shorter air hose to prevent line losses when I removed my crank puller bolt.I had a 150psig compressor.

TheRealTegger

The PDF is a copy of an issue of Honda Service News, a monthly publication put out by American Honda for their dealerships. Honda only ever mentioned the crank-bolt thing once, and it's in that article.

HSN issues contain heads-ups, how-tos, service-manual corrections, and explanation articles. If an issue isn't serious enough to warrant a TSB, it goes in HSN.

TSBs are generally only used when there is a systemic problem of some kind, not for tech-tips and explanations.

el crapitan

well, regardless, i don't consider that sentence an explanation.
ooh ooh. but i did just think of another explanation just this second. because of rotational force, or torque, of the motor against the bolt, it would cause it to tighten more as time went on. just like a fan clutch. doesn't that sound logical?

skyr4hire

I was reading to find out if the starter would work with my Honda Pilot 3.5 Vtec engine. Can I use the starter or no way?

Thanks

skyr4hire

I was reading to find out if the starter would work with my Honda Pilot 3.5 Vtec engine. Can I use the starter or no way?

Thanks

TheRealTegger

That's a common misconception.
But it's impossible for that to happen: Bolts subject to movement of any kind will loosen, not tighten. Put another way, water does not flow uphill.

TheRealTegger

If your crank pulley is on the right side (passenger side in the US) of the engine bay, you can use the starter to loosen its bolt.

el crapitan

so you're saying a fan clutch doesn't tighten further over time because of engine rotation?
then why would the rule of thumb be, when removing a fan clutch, ALWAYS loosen in the direction of fan rotation?
why would the engineers of ALL makes and models have designed it this way if it didn't matter?

GagnarTheUnruly

iTrader: (3)

I guess that means it's impossible to ever tighten a bolt....

Except it's obviously possible whenever a directional force is applied. Like the force produced by the crankshaft.

TheRealTegger

Except that's not what happens. Once tightened to correct torque, the bolt stays put and does not move again, even the slightest. If it moves, even the slightest, it will loosen.

Bolt threads are just another form of inclined plane. Just as your car will not move uphill without correctly-applied effort, a bolt will not tighten without correct effort. The crankshaft's movement does not provide the correct kind of effort to make the bolt tighten.

The only way the crank's movement could result in the bolt's tightening would be if somebody attempted to use the starter and a wrench to "loosen" the bolt on a B-series.

GagnarTheUnruly

iTrader: (3)

The crank can provide a directional force. Just as the engine can move your car it can also tighten a bolt. What you are saying is only true if no energy is applied. As long as the force exerted by the crank exceeds the force needed to tighten it further, it will tighten further.

TheRealTegger

Let's summarize:

A B-series engine turns counter-clockwise, and has a crank bolt that has right-hand threads.
Just about every other engine on the road turns clockwise, and has a crank bolt that has right-hand threads.

If there is some sort of force that causes a B-series engine's crank bolt to tighten,
why isn't there some sort of force that causes every other engine's crank bolt to loosen?

Have you considered that?

el crapitan

hmm. excellent point. gonna get to the bottom of that, because i am definitely interested to know

TheRealTegger

Consider this as well: If the crank can move so as to tighten the bolt, then it can move the other way as well. Remember that it's much easier for things to travel down an incline than it is for them to travel up an incline.

That's the mechanism by which fasteners become loose.

The whole point of fasteners is to prevent movement. A properly functioning fastener connects two separate masses into one solid mass. The same thing is also done with welding, but welding is unsuitable for connecting two separate masses that need to become separate again from time to time.

Prevention-of-movement is partially why torque is so important. In the same PDF referenced above, Honda warns mechanics NOT to skimp on torque just because they had a hard time getting the bolt off. One of my old neighbors did just that very thing on his old Prelude (he went 120 instead of 130), and the crank bolt fell out on the highway.

el crapitan

well, been deliberating and i still haven't reached conclusion. i mean, the fact that honda engines are designed to rotate opposite most other makes engines and the fact that hondas, pretty particularly, encounter this issue, can not be a coincidence. there's reasoning behind everything. the pulley can't turn against the bolt. the keyway prevents movement. in other engines, it'll be press fit. still though, no movement. however, the bolt doesn't thread into the pulley. only against it. but, as you'd stated, if the counter-clockwise rotation of the crank on the right hand thread of the bolt did cause it to tighten, then the opposite would be true of almost every other make engine.
hmmm. gonna figure this out. maybe not tomorrow. maybe not next week. but it'll be in the back of my mind until i find the reasoning.

skyr4hire

Good to know. Seems that shorter extensions, more air pressure, shorter sockets, and shorter hoses all help transfer more torque to a bolt. I think my next step is to get 3/4 extensions and a bigger breaker bar.

Thanks everyone. Interesting conversation. For the record I am not convinced that a bolt tightens much through torque of the shaft the pulley is secured to. But vibration and corrosion may certainly tighten it.

So is it true that Honda Tech oil and torque to 150 ft lbs the crankshaft bolt when reinstalling. No red loctite right? What about blue loctite?

Thx

skyr4hire

Glad I got some interesting discussions going.

It seems to make sense to me that if I am trying to loosen a bolt to the left (normal threads) and the engine turns to the left (counterclockwise) I will just tighten it or worse break it when held with a breaker bar. Not willing to take that chance. I do hope that this is indeed normal threads. It sounds like it. Otherwise I have just been tightening it and that would explain my difficulty.

Also good to know. Seems that shorter extensions, more air pressure, shorter sockets, and shorter hoses all helps transfer more torque to a bolt. I think my next step is to get 3/4 extensions and a bigger breaker bar. And turn counterclockwise.

Also for the record. It seems to be a general consensus that one needs to be careful of too much heat to the harmonic balancer will damage the rubber built into it. Heat needs to be applied to the bolt to dissolve the red loctite but not too much. Will a propane torch be able to apply enough heat?

For the record I am not convinced that a bolt tightens much through torque of the shaft the pulley is secured to. But vibration and corrosion may certainly tighten it.

So is it true that Honda Techs oil and torque to 150 ft lbs the crankshaft bolt when reinstalling. No red loctite right? What about blue loctite?

Thx

GagnarTheUnruly

iTrader: (3)

No heat. You don't want to be messing around with concentrated heat in there. Brute force or an air wrench are the best ways to get it out.

Did someone tell you to Loctite the bolt? I think most people put anti-seize on.

TheRealTegger

NO. That is WRONG. Totally, 100%, completely WRONG.

The bolt DOES NOT TIGHTEN MORE ONCE TORQUED! If it moves at all, it will LOOSEN. Read ALL of my posts.

Do NOT use Loctite or ANY other thread-locker compound. Apply ordinary engine oil precisely as per the factory manual, and torque to factory specification, which is 130 ft lbs.

el crapitan

there's nothing wrong with a little heat in the right place. the amount that transfers beyond the bolt is negligible.
you can fight for hours, or you can spend 2 minutes with oxy/acetylene.
mind you that's only after the 3/4" impact wrench has failed to do the job

and why does it take up to 3 times the torque to remove?
you still have provided no proof to this claim