build LS or go b16a?
03-09-2005, 01:42 PM
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build LS or go b16a?
i've been thinking about what i should do to my car and i came down to 2 choices which are either build my LS motor i have right now(bolt-ons,cams,valvetrain,port it and etc.) or go b16a. cause i know a built LS can reach up to 150-180 whp with proper tuning and has more torque than a b16. so i just want to know what you guys think and your opinions. and yes i have a budget because if i didnt than i would go gsr.oh yeah, and this is a 92 DA. thanks.
03-09-2005, 01:53 PM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (redINTEGRAdriver)
turbo ls > built ls > b16a
im sure there is a reason that you didnt mention turbo, but why spend all that money on building a na ls or a b16a, when turbo can be had for the same, or even cheaper. and you can piece it together one part at a time to fit comfortably in your budget. just something to think about, good luck
im sure there is a reason that you didnt mention turbo, but why spend all that money on building a na ls or a b16a, when turbo can be had for the same, or even cheaper. and you can piece it together one part at a time to fit comfortably in your budget. just something to think about, good luck
03-09-2005, 04:09 PM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (97vtecGSR)
got my b16 for 1150, i'd like to see a built motor (if done correctly w/ bearings and gaskets and water pump and oil pump and t-belt) beat that price. and i wont even mention a turbo w/ how ridiculous it is to put together one of those.
stock XSI's have run 14.7's (from whats posted here on HT). b16 DA's are faster than people think.
another great thing about b16 is that it can be built to throw out 190whp VERY cheaply and reliably.
if you're on a budget, i'd recommend the obd0 b16a swap.
stock XSI's have run 14.7's (from whats posted here on HT). b16 DA's are faster than people think.
another great thing about b16 is that it can be built to throw out 190whp VERY cheaply and reliably.
if you're on a budget, i'd recommend the obd0 b16a swap.
03-09-2005, 04:20 PM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (3.504)
It kinda depends on what you want. A LS without turbo or a VTEC head might never atain the peak horsepower of a built b16 but it can come close. The torque is the nice thing though. For a car you drive on the street regularly I would stay with the LS. A car is a lot more fun to drive when you don't have to have the speedo pegged to go anywhere.
Search for threads on the Crower 404's. They make really good power.
Search for threads on the Crower 404's. They make really good power.
03-09-2005, 05:23 PM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (redINTEGRAdriver)
It all depends on your driving style. The b16 is going to have to be revved higher to attain the same horsepower, but can attain a higher hp number overall. Stock vs stock the b16 will get you down the strip faster.
Doing a good turbo setup that you intelligently piece together yourself is still going to cost 2k if you want to do it right. I know you can make a "junkyard" turbo for 1k or maybe less, I have even read an indepth guide on how to do so, but it's not going to put down the same numbers and it's not going to be reliable (specially if you use an FMU with a set a/f ratio).
Doing a good turbo setup that you intelligently piece together yourself is still going to cost 2k if you want to do it right. I know you can make a "junkyard" turbo for 1k or maybe less, I have even read an indepth guide on how to do so, but it's not going to put down the same numbers and it's not going to be reliable (specially if you use an FMU with a set a/f ratio).
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03-09-2005, 06:00 PM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (B16aef9)
what you need to look at is your budget.
i can tell you from personal experience that building any honda b-series is not cheap as long as you do it like you're supposed to. it cost 4000 for a setup i helped my best friend with, a built all motor LS. it's costing me 2000 for a pct built b16 w/ bc3's. its insane what it takes to put motors together.
as for what to do with your budget, i'm still going to say out of ease and the price, obd0 b16 swap. it has the best reliabilty and the most fun with the budget you're probably toying around with. this is a direct bolt in, and if you have to swap around anything its just injectors and distributor plugs. you might also need to find an obd1 vtec ecu but thats only if you're an obd1 car. the reason i dont recommend the obd1 xsi swap is because it costs more. the other swaps you mentioned (gsr, b16a2) are way more expensive of swaps but are just as easy to put in. the thing is you will have to use your LS trans and that will really kill performance of these motors. you could do a hydro clutch conversion but thats more money and those conversions are garbage, not reliable. the other option you have that would be the cheapest, just to get the car moving, would be an LS long block, but that would be the least amount of fun. it would still be fun, just not as fun as the other options.
i'm not a turbo guy so dont ask me about turbo stuff, but i'm just giving advice from my own experience with what to do w/ a DA that needs a quick cheap swap and experience in building b-series.
i can tell you from personal experience that building any honda b-series is not cheap as long as you do it like you're supposed to. it cost 4000 for a setup i helped my best friend with, a built all motor LS. it's costing me 2000 for a pct built b16 w/ bc3's. its insane what it takes to put motors together.
as for what to do with your budget, i'm still going to say out of ease and the price, obd0 b16 swap. it has the best reliabilty and the most fun with the budget you're probably toying around with. this is a direct bolt in, and if you have to swap around anything its just injectors and distributor plugs. you might also need to find an obd1 vtec ecu but thats only if you're an obd1 car. the reason i dont recommend the obd1 xsi swap is because it costs more. the other swaps you mentioned (gsr, b16a2) are way more expensive of swaps but are just as easy to put in. the thing is you will have to use your LS trans and that will really kill performance of these motors. you could do a hydro clutch conversion but thats more money and those conversions are garbage, not reliable. the other option you have that would be the cheapest, just to get the car moving, would be an LS long block, but that would be the least amount of fun. it would still be fun, just not as fun as the other options.
i'm not a turbo guy so dont ask me about turbo stuff, but i'm just giving advice from my own experience with what to do w/ a DA that needs a quick cheap swap and experience in building b-series.
03-09-2005, 07:23 PM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (3.504)
do u want tremendous power?
If so you have to invest alot of money into the ls block (meaning bored, pistons etc etc)
In a B16 you can add some ctr os pistons with good shafts, valvetrain clutch, etc etc. Wat's your future plan?
Totally every day car, or track car? Think this hard
If so you have to invest alot of money into the ls block (meaning bored, pistons etc etc)
In a B16 you can add some ctr os pistons with good shafts, valvetrain clutch, etc etc. Wat's your future plan?
Totally every day car, or track car? Think this hard
03-09-2005, 08:24 PM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (NuclearB18B)
I have been wondering if doing the vtec on my LS is a good idea, since I do want to boost it. I plan on keeping it a daily driver, but I do want the power... So, I too am pretty curious about that... -ekzrated 
03-09-2005, 08:39 PM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (ekzrated)
Keep the 1.8. I think your DA would be underpowered with the B16A in it. I know the XSi's came with them but still. I agree for the turbo idea, or building up a NA LS. You should swap out the tranny for a lower geared cable tranny if you plan to go with a NA setup. You could go LS vtec which would be somewhat pricey(im building one), or you could just put a set of say type r pistons in the LS block, and a set of cams such as the crower 404s. You could have a pretty fast 1.8. I personally just think the b16a is going to underpower the DA. All my friends B16's are torqueless compared to my LS. I mean hondas dont have a lot of torque but just comparing. to the 1.8
to the 1.8
03-09-2005, 09:54 PM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (3.504)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 3.504 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">got my b16 for 1150, i'd like to see a built motor (if done correctly w/ bearings and gaskets and water pump and oil pump and t-belt) beat that price. and i wont even mention a turbo w/ how ridiculous it is to put together one of those.
stock XSI's have run 14.7's (from whats posted here on HT). b16 DA's are faster than people think.
another great thing about b16 is that it can be built to throw out 190whp VERY cheaply and reliably.
if you're on a budget, i'd recommend the obd0 b16a swap.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Preach on Brotha!!
DA LOVE!!!
stock XSI's have run 14.7's (from whats posted here on HT). b16 DA's are faster than people think.
another great thing about b16 is that it can be built to throw out 190whp VERY cheaply and reliably.
if you're on a budget, i'd recommend the obd0 b16a swap.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Preach on Brotha!!
DA LOVE!!!
03-09-2005, 09:54 PM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (ekzrated)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekzrated »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have been wondering if doing the vtec on my LS is a good idea, since I do want to boost it. I plan on keeping it a daily driver, but I do want the power... So, I too am pretty curious about that... -ekzrated </TD></TR></TABLE>
umm turbo ls vtec....i hear something....sounds like a blown motor....
</TD></TR></TABLE>umm turbo ls vtec....i hear something....sounds like a blown motor....
03-09-2005, 10:51 PM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (3.504)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 3.504 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
another great thing about b16 is that it can be built to throw out 190whp VERY cheaply and reliably.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'd like to know how you're gonna make 54whp or so with an N/A motor cheaply. one of my best friends has an ITR and it took him about $2500~$3000 to make 201.8whp
another great thing about b16 is that it can be built to throw out 190whp VERY cheaply and reliably.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'd like to know how you're gonna make 54whp or so with an N/A motor cheaply. one of my best friends has an ITR and it took him about $2500~$3000 to make 201.8whp
03-10-2005, 05:24 AM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (shermanyang)
maybe it took a boatload of money to increase the performance of a Type-R, but remember, it's a lot harder to improve on an ITR than an LS. you don't need to fully build the bottom end of an LS to spin 8000rpm. it's just lacking in a little stability and bolt stretching thanks to small rod bolts. get yourself a nicely ported head, valvetrain, some big cams, and go for a bottom end with TopLine ITR pistons (like $150/set!) and ARP bolts, boom. you got a B16 killer for not too much scratch.
03-10-2005, 07:31 AM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (95lstegman)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 95lstegman »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">maybe it took a boatload of money to increase the performance of a Type-R, but remember, it's a lot harder to improve on an ITR than an LS. you don't need to fully build the bottom end of an LS to spin 8000rpm. </TD></TR></TABLE>
i hope thats a typo and you meant to type ITR...
youre gonna have to rev the hell out of a b16 to go fast in the ls...think about all your options...or not, its your money, not ours
i hope thats a typo and you meant to type ITR...
youre gonna have to rev the hell out of a b16 to go fast in the ls...think about all your options...or not, its your money, not ours
03-10-2005, 07:41 AM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (nickgmiller0408)
no, no typo. i've whitnessed a stock-bottomed 155k mile LS doing 8500rpm, LS/VTEC style. i'm not sure whether or not the point was to blow it up or not, but it didn't. wouldn't do it to my motor, but hey, this was done by a guy near me who uses 2.1L b-series spinning 11k rpm in his street cars after a season in the race car. he's just friggin crazy. cool guy to know, though. full machine shop in his garage. plus, at least where i live, LS/VTEC is rampant, and almost everybody uses stock blocks. most of them put aftermarket cams/valvetrain in and rev 8500rpm. i wouldn't do it stock block, although this guy my good friend introduced me to said he's been running 8500 stock block for like 15k miles. but still, most common problem is spun bearings, especially rods, so get some ARP love in there.
03-10-2005, 10:21 AM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (95lstegman)
i've built a piston/rod LS that went 9000.
besides that, a cheap 190whp (about 55-60whp gain) done cheaply = pct pistons, buddy club 3's + springs, ITR LMA's, bolt on's + tuning. check out the allmotor forum, plenty of guys with similar setups making around 190whp. some pct only builds have gone that high in horse and have been put together for around 1500. i'm currently doing my b16 build and i'm in the 2300 price range. not that expensive considering that the all motor LS i put together took about 4000 in motor assembly, not to mention what else went into the car. sure it had more torque, but it was still runin on an LS gearset w/ a 4.266 final.
i've never seen a stock LS in a DA thats stock run faster than 15.7's, and a bolt on LS go under 15.5's. theres stock b16 DA's that are running high 14's, what does this not proove???
i will say this, a built b-series is a built b-series, they all can do the same things since blocks are all pretty much the same (3 basic blocks being the pr3, p72, pr4... two of which are 270mm, just one of the 270mm isn't tapped for squirters and vtec and whatnot.) so it doesn't really matter what b-series it is when building them. they've all ended up making the same amount of power (ish)
besides that, a cheap 190whp (about 55-60whp gain) done cheaply = pct pistons, buddy club 3's + springs, ITR LMA's, bolt on's + tuning. check out the allmotor forum, plenty of guys with similar setups making around 190whp. some pct only builds have gone that high in horse and have been put together for around 1500. i'm currently doing my b16 build and i'm in the 2300 price range. not that expensive considering that the all motor LS i put together took about 4000 in motor assembly, not to mention what else went into the car. sure it had more torque, but it was still runin on an LS gearset w/ a 4.266 final.
i've never seen a stock LS in a DA thats stock run faster than 15.7's, and a bolt on LS go under 15.5's. theres stock b16 DA's that are running high 14's, what does this not proove???
i will say this, a built b-series is a built b-series, they all can do the same things since blocks are all pretty much the same (3 basic blocks being the pr3, p72, pr4... two of which are 270mm, just one of the 270mm isn't tapped for squirters and vtec and whatnot.) so it doesn't really matter what b-series it is when building them. they've all ended up making the same amount of power (ish)
03-10-2005, 06:02 PM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (ProjectDarkBlack)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ProjectDarkBlack »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">junkyard turbo!</TD></TR></TABLE>
03-10-2005, 06:27 PM
#21
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (redINTEGRAdriver)
Stick with the LS. If you plan on going N/A, let me know, I can help out and Im in SoCal
And what is everyone talking about you have to spend a shitload of $ to build an LS! You can build an LS for far cheaper than a B16. You can use CTR Pistons in an LS, and all you need to do to strengthen the block is shotpeen the rods($50-60) and 8mm ARP Rod bolts($35). Cams are super cheap too, you can get Crower 403's or 404's for $350 shipped to your door and Valvesprings for $160.
You can also build a nice turbo setup for your car for around $2K.
And what is everyone talking about you have to spend a shitload of $ to build an LS! You can build an LS for far cheaper than a B16. You can use CTR Pistons in an LS, and all you need to do to strengthen the block is shotpeen the rods($50-60) and 8mm ARP Rod bolts($35). Cams are super cheap too, you can get Crower 403's or 404's for $350 shipped to your door and Valvesprings for $160.
You can also build a nice turbo setup for your car for around $2K.
03-10-2005, 07:22 PM
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (hotsuma23)
i'm agreeing with hybrid there. NA LS is cheap compared to VTEC. parts are same cost if not cheaper, and the motor is cheap as beans. so take that $2300 you spend on B16 stuff. put it into LS. plus the money you paid for the B16. i'm at 154whp and i've only spent about $1200, if you include the header and exhaust and cams and valvetrain and valve job and cam sprockets, which are currently at (0,0). if i had that much to spend again, i'd be a star with this little motor. but instead i'm going LSD first and rebuilding tranny, too, before i go for more revs. that's next, but i seriously need to pin down in the corners. lots of potential, but too much power for 1 tire alone
03-10-2005, 08:04 PM
#25
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Re: build LS or go b16a? (95lstegman)
Look at my sig. That is what my N/A LS dynoed at. I spent between $2200 and $2500 for EVERYTHING! All the parts to do the rebuild, the engine and the tranny which is a GSR w/ LSD BTW!
Also I dont have to rev to 8500+ to make these numbers. I peaked and 7400! Now if I have gone crazy on the build, I could have been right at 200whp at around 8500-9K peak!
Also I dont have to rev to 8500+ to make these numbers. I peaked and 7400! Now if I have gone crazy on the build, I could have been right at 200whp at around 8500-9K peak!