Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY
01-21-2006, 01:19 PM
#1
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Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY
This is a joke or a mistake right?
Please someone verify that the standard rate GC's are too soft if anything.
These things are REDICULOUS hard... I mean I can't even get the car to budge...
The only thing that seems to make them move are driving the car... then they buck back and forth like a pissed bronco.
With the yellows set to all the way soft all they do is bounce and rock back and forth... with the yellows set all the way stiff they still bounce but now you have the added benifit of kidney damage whenever you drive over so much as a pencil in the road.
Someone please verify what the standard kit should be marked as on the spring.
I'm going to call GC direct but it's sat. so I don't know if they answer phones on weekends or not.
*EDIT*
Sorry for not posting in suspension forum mods feel free to move
*/EDIT*
Please someone verify that the standard rate GC's are too soft if anything.
These things are REDICULOUS hard... I mean I can't even get the car to budge...
The only thing that seems to make them move are driving the car... then they buck back and forth like a pissed bronco.
With the yellows set to all the way soft all they do is bounce and rock back and forth... with the yellows set all the way stiff they still bounce but now you have the added benifit of kidney damage whenever you drive over so much as a pencil in the road.
Someone please verify what the standard kit should be marked as on the spring.
I'm going to call GC direct but it's sat. so I don't know if they answer phones on weekends or not.
*EDIT*
Sorry for not posting in suspension forum mods feel free to move
*/EDIT*
01-21-2006, 01:22 PM
#3
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY (.RJ)
NO
DEFINATELY not the problem...
Sorry forgot to mention... didn't drop the car AT ALL. It's set to basically the stock height.
And I cut the bumpstops.
AND I used the highest mounting points for the GC sleeves on the Koni's so that it doesn't even bottom out shock when I do lower it.
DEFINATELY not the problem...
Sorry forgot to mention... didn't drop the car AT ALL. It's set to basically the stock height.
And I cut the bumpstops.
AND I used the highest mounting points for the GC sleeves on the Koni's so that it doesn't even bottom out shock when I do lower it.
01-21-2006, 01:26 PM
#4
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY (NonovUrbizniz)
You need to clarify some info. Like what the car is , that the rates are, etc.
You have a tried and true fitment so you have done something wrong. Why would you do a system like this if you weren't going to lower it? I don't know ooff the top of my head but now wonder if you might be somehow coil-binding the springs with so much preload to keep it up so high. Why not lower the car down into a height range that it was meant to be and i regualrly used in and that can help give some information. We need more info to figure out what has been done wrong.
You have a tried and true fitment so you have done something wrong. Why would you do a system like this if you weren't going to lower it? I don't know ooff the top of my head but now wonder if you might be somehow coil-binding the springs with so much preload to keep it up so high. Why not lower the car down into a height range that it was meant to be and i regualrly used in and that can help give some information. We need more info to figure out what has been done wrong.
01-21-2006, 01:26 PM
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY (NonovUrbizniz)
What are your spring rates?
I would think something in the install has gone wrong - if you can, put the car on stands with the wheels off, and the stands under the LCA's so the car is at ride height and take some pictures.
I would think something in the install has gone wrong - if you can, put the car on stands with the wheels off, and the stands under the LCA's so the car is at ride height and take some pictures.
01-21-2006, 01:28 PM
#7
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Re: (rockdude14)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rockdude14 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">did you cut or remove the dusck covers?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah, you shouldnt be using the dust boots at all.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah, you shouldnt be using the dust boots at all.
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01-21-2006, 02:25 PM
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY (CRX Lee)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You need to clarify some info. Like what the car is , that the rates are, etc.
You have a tried and true fitment so you have done something wrong. Why would you do a system like this if you weren't going to lower it? I don't know ooff the top of my head but now wonder if you might be somehow coil-binding the springs with so much preload to keep it up so high. Why not lower the car down into a height range that it was meant to be and i regualrly used in and that can help give some information. We need more info to figure out what has been done wrong.</TD></TR></TABLE>
As discussed before in various "Preload" threads, the ride height doesn't increase chance of coil binding because the springs are compressed by the car's weight and nothing else. It's not sitting at the top of the suspension travel with additional spring preload.
Assuming nothing is wrong with the install, my guess is spring rate, or you're just not used to it? Post the part numbers on the springs themselves. Also, shocks on the low setting means it'll dampen spring movement less, so naturally you'll feel more bouncy as it up/down/up/down, the natural oscillatory nature of springs.
Have you had any comparative experience with other non-OEM suspension?
You have a tried and true fitment so you have done something wrong. Why would you do a system like this if you weren't going to lower it? I don't know ooff the top of my head but now wonder if you might be somehow coil-binding the springs with so much preload to keep it up so high. Why not lower the car down into a height range that it was meant to be and i regualrly used in and that can help give some information. We need more info to figure out what has been done wrong.</TD></TR></TABLE>
As discussed before in various "Preload" threads, the ride height doesn't increase chance of coil binding because the springs are compressed by the car's weight and nothing else. It's not sitting at the top of the suspension travel with additional spring preload.
Assuming nothing is wrong with the install, my guess is spring rate, or you're just not used to it? Post the part numbers on the springs themselves. Also, shocks on the low setting means it'll dampen spring movement less, so naturally you'll feel more bouncy as it up/down/up/down, the natural oscillatory nature of springs.
Have you had any comparative experience with other non-OEM suspension?
01-21-2006, 05:17 PM
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY (superpilun)
[QUOTE=superpilun]
As discussed before in various "Preload" threads, the ride height doesn't increase chance of coil binding because the springs are compressed by the car's weight and nothing else. It's not sitting at the top of the suspension travel with additional spring preload.[\QUOTE]
I think Lee knows what he is talking about (he works for Koni), most GC springs are so much shorter than the stock ones, it would be hard to get the car to Stock Height without cranking the spring perchs pretty high and possiable leading to a coil bind situation ( I have no Idea how this could be done by hand but anything is possiable.)
Are the Koni Specific Ground Controls?
As discussed before in various "Preload" threads, the ride height doesn't increase chance of coil binding because the springs are compressed by the car's weight and nothing else. It's not sitting at the top of the suspension travel with additional spring preload.[\QUOTE]
I think Lee knows what he is talking about (he works for Koni), most GC springs are so much shorter than the stock ones, it would be hard to get the car to Stock Height without cranking the spring perchs pretty high and possiable leading to a coil bind situation ( I have no Idea how this could be done by hand but anything is possiable.)
Are the Koni Specific Ground Controls?
01-21-2006, 06:29 PM
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY (superpilun)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by superpilun »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As discussed before in various "Preload" threads, the ride height doesn't increase chance of coil binding because the springs are compressed by the car's weight and nothing else. It's not sitting at the top of the suspension travel with additional spring preload.</TD></TR></TABLE>
With the shock fully extended, you could preload the spring all the way to coil-bind if you wanted, with a lot more preload than the static corner weight.
That said, coil-bind is not the issue. A coil-bind spring will be incredibly rigid in compression and will crash down on the bumpstops every time you hit a bump...the opposite of :bouncy" in my opinion.
With the shock fully extended, you could preload the spring all the way to coil-bind if you wanted, with a lot more preload than the static corner weight.
That said, coil-bind is not the issue. A coil-bind spring will be incredibly rigid in compression and will crash down on the bumpstops every time you hit a bump...the opposite of :bouncy" in my opinion.
01-21-2006, 07:21 PM
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY (GSpeedR)
post the part numbers on the springs for us first. Lets see what rates they are so that you can make sure they havent sent you 1000 pd springs. If they are right, then start trouble shooting elsewhere.
Eyal
Modified by Eyal 951 at 9:21 PM 1/21/2006
Eyal
Modified by Eyal 951 at 9:21 PM 1/21/2006
01-21-2006, 09:03 PM
#12
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY
Originally Posted by CRX Lee
You need to clarify some info. Like what the car is , that the rates are, etc.
1993 honda civic ex coupe, rates were supposed to be standard rates whatever that is like 340 280 or something like that
You have a tried and true fitment so you have done something wrong.
My concern is that the rates shipped to me are wrong.
Why would you do a system like this if you weren't going to lower it?
I am going to lower it... I was pressed for time towards the end of the install and didn't bother adjusting the ride height... I had to get out of there so I just finger tightened the collar up till the spring sat in the spring perch... making it sit at or a touch higher than stock ride hieght... Planning on adjusting the height tomorrow
I don't know off the top of my head but now wonder if you might be somehow coil-binding the springs with so much preload to keep it up so high. Why not lower the car down into a height range that it was meant to be and i regualrly used in and that can help give some information. We need more info to figure out what has been done wrong.
There is no preload on the springs. I'm pretty sure the rates are just higher than they should be.
The intall should be fine... I mean I'm not talking about a bizarre behavior like binding would have nor improper install... I'm talking about the springs being REDICULOUS stiff.
1993 honda civic ex coupe, rates were supposed to be standard rates whatever that is like 340 280 or something like that
You have a tried and true fitment so you have done something wrong.
My concern is that the rates shipped to me are wrong.
Why would you do a system like this if you weren't going to lower it?
I am going to lower it... I was pressed for time towards the end of the install and didn't bother adjusting the ride height... I had to get out of there so I just finger tightened the collar up till the spring sat in the spring perch... making it sit at or a touch higher than stock ride hieght... Planning on adjusting the height tomorrow
I don't know off the top of my head but now wonder if you might be somehow coil-binding the springs with so much preload to keep it up so high. Why not lower the car down into a height range that it was meant to be and i regualrly used in and that can help give some information. We need more info to figure out what has been done wrong.
There is no preload on the springs. I'm pretty sure the rates are just higher than they should be.
The intall should be fine... I mean I'm not talking about a bizarre behavior like binding would have nor improper install... I'm talking about the springs being REDICULOUS stiff.
Originally Posted by rockdude14
did you cut or remove the dusck covers?
look at the suspension on the ground and see if somthing it contacting somthing it shouldnt
I just drilled them out like the koni instructions say too. I made sure that they would clear the sleeves through the full range of operation.
I'll take a look at them tomorrow and see if they look damaged but again... that wouldn't cause the problem I'm having. That would most likely just cause some noise and possibly some long term problems with the shocks.
look at the suspension on the ground and see if somthing it contacting somthing it shouldnt
I just drilled them out like the koni instructions say too. I made sure that they would clear the sleeves through the full range of operation.
I'll take a look at them tomorrow and see if they look damaged but again... that wouldn't cause the problem I'm having. That would most likely just cause some noise and possibly some long term problems with the shocks.
Originally Posted by superpilun
Assuming nothing is wrong with the install, my guess is spring rate, or you're just not used to it? Post the part numbers on the springs themselves. Also, shocks on the low setting means it'll dampen spring movement less, so naturally you'll feel more bouncy as it up/down/up/down, the natural oscillatory nature of springs.
Have you had any comparative experience with other non-OEM suspension?
[b]I'll post the part numbers tomorrow...
I've had Eibach Pro-kit springs with KYB GR2 struts before in a different car and I've been in TONS of cars with suspensions... this feels more aggressive than my friends H&R Ultra Lows he has in his 92 GTI... and those things are kidney bruisers by anyone's account.
The eibachs were basically exactly what I wanted as far as rates (I like having variable rated springs so the stiff rates are there when you need them but you also have nice cushy rates for driving around town.
I assumed/have read that the standard rates for the GC's would be soft if anything which is why I chose the Koni yellows so that way I could stiffen up the supsension with the struts intstead of having bone jarring springs in there.
Have you had any comparative experience with other non-OEM suspension?
[b]I'll post the part numbers tomorrow...
I've had Eibach Pro-kit springs with KYB GR2 struts before in a different car and I've been in TONS of cars with suspensions... this feels more aggressive than my friends H&R Ultra Lows he has in his 92 GTI... and those things are kidney bruisers by anyone's account.
The eibachs were basically exactly what I wanted as far as rates (I like having variable rated springs so the stiff rates are there when you need them but you also have nice cushy rates for driving around town.
I assumed/have read that the standard rates for the GC's would be soft if anything which is why I chose the Koni yellows so that way I could stiffen up the supsension with the struts intstead of having bone jarring springs in there.
Originally Posted by Solracer
Are the Koni Specific Ground Controls?
Yes. I ordered them as a package from one of the retailers on here.
Yes. I ordered them as a package from one of the retailers on here.
I'm going to go to my buddy's station tomorrow and I'll post the part numbers, take a look at everything for any evidence of binding or unwanted contact, then I'll lower it down some and see what happens...
Right now my money is on incorrect spring rates...
Can someone just confirm that the standard rates ARE SOFT?
01-21-2006, 11:49 PM
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY (NonovUrbizniz)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NonovUrbizniz »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">.. I mean I can't even get the car to budge...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm...uhhh...only running a 350# spring on the back of my car right now, and I can sit on the trunk without seeing a noticeable amount of compression. A linear spring isn't going to move much when you push down on the fender, etc.
Those things will feel different than a progressive spring, but yeah, let's see the numbers. And take your car to some kind of organized event, or the collective wrath of this forum will materialize to track you down and whisper twisted haikus in your ear while you sleep until you go completely insane... :evil laughter:
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm...uhhh...only running a 350# spring on the back of my car right now, and I can sit on the trunk without seeing a noticeable amount of compression. A linear spring isn't going to move much when you push down on the fender, etc.
Those things will feel different than a progressive spring, but yeah, let's see the numbers. And take your car to some kind of organized event, or the collective wrath of this forum will materialize to track you down and whisper twisted haikus in your ear while you sleep until you go completely insane... :evil laughter:
01-22-2006, 06:58 AM
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY (NonovUrbizniz)
I started with OTS GC rates on my 94 Integra (which is similar to your Civic). They are MUCH stiffer than stock springs. I found that 1/2 to 1 full turn from full soft on the Konis gave about the right amount of damping.
You are probably just not used to having springs that stiff. We're talking almost 80% stiffer in front and more than 2 times stiffer than stock in the back.
You are probably just not used to having springs that stiff. We're talking almost 80% stiffer in front and more than 2 times stiffer than stock in the back.
01-22-2006, 10:23 AM
#17
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY
I'm gunna head out to my buddy's station in a bit...
As far as the degree of stiffness I'm experiencing... I mean if I SLAM on the break or gas or turn into a corner there is ZERO movement... and I have NO rear sway bar and only a stock front. Only other suspension mod I have is full es bushing kit.
I wouldn't be so against a stiff suspension... but the thing see saws front to back VERY dangerously at ANY speed almost any time it hits any kind of dip in the road or bump.
As far as the degree of stiffness I'm experiencing... I mean if I SLAM on the break or gas or turn into a corner there is ZERO movement... and I have NO rear sway bar and only a stock front. Only other suspension mod I have is full es bushing kit.
I wouldn't be so against a stiff suspension... but the thing see saws front to back VERY dangerously at ANY speed almost any time it hits any kind of dip in the road or bump.
01-22-2006, 11:32 AM
#19
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY (xerox445)
go get us the part numbers on the spring
im pretty sure GC still uses an eibach coilover spring, and the part number will give you the rates.
im pretty sure GC still uses an eibach coilover spring, and the part number will give you the rates.
01-22-2006, 12:13 PM
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY (Kamin)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kamin »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">go get us the part numbers on the spring
im pretty sure GC still uses an eibach coilover spring, and the part number will give you the rates. </TD></TR></TABLE>
There is nothing more to discuss until we have these part numbers. If they are ERS springs, which is what ground control sells, then the part number will let us know what rates you have.
im pretty sure GC still uses an eibach coilover spring, and the part number will give you the rates. </TD></TR></TABLE>
There is nothing more to discuss until we have these part numbers. If they are ERS springs, which is what ground control sells, then the part number will let us know what rates you have.
01-22-2006, 02:47 PM
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY (Crazydave)
if they are OTS yellows, full stiff would not creat this problem. Messing with rebound stiffness would actually make it less bouncy.
Eyal
Eyal
01-22-2006, 03:38 PM
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY (NonovUrbizniz)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NonovUrbizniz »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm gunna head out to my buddy's station in a bit...
As far as the degree of stiffness I'm experiencing... I mean if I SLAM on the break or gas or turn into a corner there is ZERO movement... and I have NO rear sway bar and only a stock front. Only other suspension mod I have is full es bushing kit.
I wouldn't be so against a stiff suspension... but the thing see saws front to back VERY dangerously at ANY speed almost any time it hits any kind of dip in the road or bump.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Did you wait until the car was lowered back onto the ground before tightening down your lower suspension mount bolt? Poly bushings can bind and mess up the ride and handling pretty significantly if you tighten everything up before getting the suspension back into it's normal position...
Christian
As far as the degree of stiffness I'm experiencing... I mean if I SLAM on the break or gas or turn into a corner there is ZERO movement... and I have NO rear sway bar and only a stock front. Only other suspension mod I have is full es bushing kit.
I wouldn't be so against a stiff suspension... but the thing see saws front to back VERY dangerously at ANY speed almost any time it hits any kind of dip in the road or bump.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Did you wait until the car was lowered back onto the ground before tightening down your lower suspension mount bolt? Poly bushings can bind and mess up the ride and handling pretty significantly if you tighten everything up before getting the suspension back into it's normal position...
Christian
01-22-2006, 04:57 PM
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY (Xian)
That's OEM bushings. The poly ones rotate freely, but the bonded rubber ones get all twisted up beyond a certain range.
To the OP: You didn't do the bushings when you did the shocks/ springs, did you?
To the OP: You didn't do the bushings when you did the shocks/ springs, did you?
01-22-2006, 05:06 PM
#25
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Re: Installed GC/Koni Yellows WAY BOUNCY (chjkingme)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chjkingme »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That's OEM bushings. The poly ones rotate freely, but the bonded rubber ones get all twisted up beyond a certain range.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You sure?
I remember the first nut and bolt I did on my car, with its wheels on, with the poly stuff in place. There were a number of pops and cracks, all of which seemed to make the car a whole lot less unpredictable...
Poly busings (correctly installed...a LARGE footnote) do indeed rotate freely. They also in some cases don't move enough in certain axis than softer OEM bushings. Like with the rear lower control arm thing we've talked about so much on here.
(Edit: I should mention that I had my poly bushings installed by a reputable shop, and did a nut-and-bolt about a week later and found all the popping...they just didn't know any better)
You sure?
I remember the first nut and bolt I did on my car, with its wheels on, with the poly stuff in place. There were a number of pops and cracks, all of which seemed to make the car a whole lot less unpredictable...
Poly busings (correctly installed...a LARGE footnote) do indeed rotate freely. They also in some cases don't move enough in certain axis than softer OEM bushings. Like with the rear lower control arm thing we've talked about so much on here.
(Edit: I should mention that I had my poly bushings installed by a reputable shop, and did a nut-and-bolt about a week later and found all the popping...they just didn't know any better)