Tire Rotation for Dumped Cars
08-03-2008, 10:34 AM
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Tire Rotation for Dumped Cars
For those of you that have slammed/dumped cars, do you rotate your tires? I ride with some aggressive negative camber and was wondering would rotating the tires by remounting them and switch them to the other side would be a good idea? Because I know that since my inner tread are worn much faster than the outer tread, remounting and switching sides would put the good tread edge on the inside and thus evenly wear both edges down.
Basically Figure B below with the flipping of the tire on the wheel:
Also, can anyone recommend a good (independent) auto shop that is willing to rotate/remount tires for slammed/dumped cars? Most places won't touch my car because of uneven wear from being dumped. I live in Rowland Heights, CA (91748) area.
Basically Figure B below with the flipping of the tire on the wheel:
Also, can anyone recommend a good (independent) auto shop that is willing to rotate/remount tires for slammed/dumped cars? Most places won't touch my car because of uneven wear from being dumped. I live in Rowland Heights, CA (91748) area.
08-03-2008, 11:35 AM
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Re: Tire Rotation for Dumped Cars (fxpguy)
I always rotate my tires using pattern B. Costs extra due to the dismounting/remounting but any tire shop should be willing to do it. As for your uneven wear, get an alignment. A little negative camber should NOT kill your tires.
08-03-2008, 11:52 AM
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I do have aggressive camber. Not sure of the exact numbers but it is highly visible from a quick glance that my tires are pretty slanted. I am fairly dumped so camber is more negative than normal.
Modified by fxpguy at 3:33 PM 8/3/2008
Modified by fxpguy at 3:33 PM 8/3/2008
08-03-2008, 11:52 AM
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Re: Tire Rotation for Dumped Cars (fxpguy)
What is written above is not precisely correct, at least not in all circumstances. The proper rotation pattern, and whether you can to flip them on the rim, depends on the type of tires you have. There is one set of rules for directional tires (e.g. Yokohama ES100), and a different set of rules for asymmetric tires (e.g. Falken Azenis RT-615). You can do it either way (or both) if your tires are neither directional nor asymmetric. What kind (make/model) of tires do you have?
Stickied at the top of this forum is a topic called
Forum Rules and FAQ - READ BEFORE POSTING
In the "Tire FAQ" section, it describes this difference as follows:
Modified by nsxtasy at 2:59 PM 8/3/2008
Stickied at the top of this forum is a topic called
Forum Rules and FAQ - READ BEFORE POSTING
In the "Tire FAQ" section, it describes this difference as follows:
Originally Posted by Forum Rules and FAQ - READ BEFORE POSTING
<FONT SIZE="4">Tires FAQ</FONT>
How should I rotate my tires?
That depends on whether your tires are directional and/or asymmetric.
<u>Directional Tires</u>
The Yokohama ES100 is a good example of a directional tire:
Directional tires are designed to rotate in a specific direction - usually, so that in rain, water is channeled from the center of the tread to both outer edges as the car travels in a forward direction. Directional tires have an arrow on the sidewall to indicate the direction in which the tires should rotate when the car goes forward.
When a directional tire is mounted on the wheel, it is done so that it can be used on one side of the car. The arrow shows whether the tire is mounted as a left tire or a right tire. Usually, directional tires are only rotated between front and back, remaining on the same side of the car. If you wanted to move it to the other side of the car, for best rain performance, you need to "flip" the tire on the rim in order to maintain the proper directionality.
<u>Asymmetric tires</u>
The Falken Azenis RT-615 pictured here:
has an asymmetric construction. Tires designed for maximum performance on dry pavement are typically designed this way, with larger tread blocks on the outside edge of the tread than the inside, to help to maximize cornering ability. Asymmetric tires have markings on the sidewall indicating whether each side should face in or out.
When an asymmetric tire is mounted on the wheel, as long as the proper side faces out, it can be used on either side of the car. You can (and should) rotate the tires from one side of the car to the other, without dismounting them from the rims; that will even out the wear the best. This can be done by using the "criss cross pattern". One pair crosses the car and the other pair moves to the other end of the car on the same side. The drive axle tires normally stay on the same side of the car, and the non-drive axle moves to the other side of the car. On a front-wheel-drive car, this means:
Left front moves to left rear
Right front moves to right rear
Left rear moves to right front
Right rear moves to left front
<u>Directional and Asymmetric Tires</u>
A few tires are both directional and asymmetric. Such tires are designed to be used on one specific side of the car, and you need to order different tires, with different part numbers, for a "left tire" or a "right tire". If your car uses the same size tires in the front as in the rear, you can rotate the tires front to back, like other directional tires, but if they are asymmetric, you should not "flip" them on the rim to use them on the other side of the car.
<u>Tires That Are Neither Directional nor Asymmetric</u>
Many tires, particularly all-season tires, are neither directional (they are non-directional) nor asymmetric (they are symmetric). They can rotate in either direction and be mounted on either side of the car. They should be rotated in the same "criss-cross pattern" as noted above for asymmetric tires; however, if the treadwear is not uniform across the width of the tread, you can flip such tires on the rim to even out the wear.
How should I rotate my tires?
That depends on whether your tires are directional and/or asymmetric.
<u>Directional Tires</u>
The Yokohama ES100 is a good example of a directional tire:
Directional tires are designed to rotate in a specific direction - usually, so that in rain, water is channeled from the center of the tread to both outer edges as the car travels in a forward direction. Directional tires have an arrow on the sidewall to indicate the direction in which the tires should rotate when the car goes forward.
When a directional tire is mounted on the wheel, it is done so that it can be used on one side of the car. The arrow shows whether the tire is mounted as a left tire or a right tire. Usually, directional tires are only rotated between front and back, remaining on the same side of the car. If you wanted to move it to the other side of the car, for best rain performance, you need to "flip" the tire on the rim in order to maintain the proper directionality.
<u>Asymmetric tires</u>
The Falken Azenis RT-615 pictured here:
has an asymmetric construction. Tires designed for maximum performance on dry pavement are typically designed this way, with larger tread blocks on the outside edge of the tread than the inside, to help to maximize cornering ability. Asymmetric tires have markings on the sidewall indicating whether each side should face in or out.
When an asymmetric tire is mounted on the wheel, as long as the proper side faces out, it can be used on either side of the car. You can (and should) rotate the tires from one side of the car to the other, without dismounting them from the rims; that will even out the wear the best. This can be done by using the "criss cross pattern". One pair crosses the car and the other pair moves to the other end of the car on the same side. The drive axle tires normally stay on the same side of the car, and the non-drive axle moves to the other side of the car. On a front-wheel-drive car, this means:
Left front moves to left rear
Right front moves to right rear
Left rear moves to right front
Right rear moves to left front
<u>Directional and Asymmetric Tires</u>
A few tires are both directional and asymmetric. Such tires are designed to be used on one specific side of the car, and you need to order different tires, with different part numbers, for a "left tire" or a "right tire". If your car uses the same size tires in the front as in the rear, you can rotate the tires front to back, like other directional tires, but if they are asymmetric, you should not "flip" them on the rim to use them on the other side of the car.
<u>Tires That Are Neither Directional nor Asymmetric</u>
Many tires, particularly all-season tires, are neither directional (they are non-directional) nor asymmetric (they are symmetric). They can rotate in either direction and be mounted on either side of the car. They should be rotated in the same "criss-cross pattern" as noted above for asymmetric tires; however, if the treadwear is not uniform across the width of the tread, you can flip such tires on the rim to even out the wear.
Modified by nsxtasy at 2:59 PM 8/3/2008
08-03-2008, 12:26 PM
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Re: Tire Rotation for Dumped Cars (nsxtasy)
To clarify further: All 3 patterns will work for symmetric directional tires and asymmetric non-directional tires. For symmetric directional tires, patterns A & C require 2 of the tires to be dismounted/flipped/remounted on the wheel. Pattern B requires all 4 tires to be dismounted/flipped/remounted on the wheel. For asymmetric non-directional tires, none of the tires would need to be dismounted/flipped/remounted on the wheel. Buying asymmetric directional tires would not be my opinion as the best option if you care about treadlife. If you do, your only "rotating" option is Front-to-Back & Back-to-Front, which isn't rotating at all. This only moves the tire under heavier load (the front tires) to the lighter end of the car, and vice versa. This only helps a little unless you spin your tires often causing a visible wear difference between the front and back.
08-03-2008, 12:49 PM
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Re: Tire Rotation for Dumped Cars (nsxtasy)
My tires are symmetrical and directional. Since I got some bad inner tread wear, I need to remount/flip them anyways so that I can get the good edge of the tread to the inner edge so that I can wear it down as well. And since I am remounting the tires and swapping sides, the direction of rotation stays correct anyways.
At least this is my logic of how I should even out my inner tread wear. Makes sense to me, since I would eventually wear both edges down evenly in the long run, rather than constantly wearing the same inner tread down.
At least this is my logic of how I should even out my inner tread wear. Makes sense to me, since I would eventually wear both edges down evenly in the long run, rather than constantly wearing the same inner tread down.
08-03-2008, 12:52 PM
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Re: Tire Rotation for Dumped Cars (Kronn 98SH)
Kronn 98SH, while nothing that you say is exactly wrong, I don't agree with much of your advice, as a practical matter. To wit...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kronn 98SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For symmetric directional tires, patterns A & C require 2 of the tires to be dismounted/flipped/remounted on the wheel.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Most summer tires are symmetric directional tires. Most of the time, you can rotate such tires front to back and back to front, keeping them on the same side of the car. You don't need to flip the tires unless the wear across the width of the tread is uneven.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kronn 98SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Pattern B requires all 4 tires to be dismounted/flipped/remounted on the wheel.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Pattern B doesn't make any sense to me, and I've never seen it recommended.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kronn 98SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Buying asymmetric directional tires would not be my opinion as the best option if you care about treadlife. If you do, your only "rotating" option is Front-to-Back & Back-to-Front, which isn't rotating at all. This only moves the tire under heavier load (the front tires) to the lighter end of the car, and vice versa. This only helps a little unless you spin your tires often causing a visible wear difference between the front and back.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Asymmetric directional tires are not used very often, and they are typically used only in very specific circumstances. For example, the OEM tires for the Acura NSX are corner-specific (yes, four different parts numbers for the tires) and are not intended to be rotated. This is done to maximize the car's performance, by designing each tire not only for the specific car, but also for the corner of the car on which it will be used.
However, rotating front to back and back to front is indeed rotating the tires, to even out the wear. This is how most summer tires (directional, symmetric) are rotated. Again, as long as the tread is wearing reasonably uniformly across its width, it works just fine.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kronn 98SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For symmetric directional tires, patterns A & C require 2 of the tires to be dismounted/flipped/remounted on the wheel.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Most summer tires are symmetric directional tires. Most of the time, you can rotate such tires front to back and back to front, keeping them on the same side of the car. You don't need to flip the tires unless the wear across the width of the tread is uneven.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kronn 98SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Pattern B requires all 4 tires to be dismounted/flipped/remounted on the wheel.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Pattern B doesn't make any sense to me, and I've never seen it recommended.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kronn 98SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Buying asymmetric directional tires would not be my opinion as the best option if you care about treadlife. If you do, your only "rotating" option is Front-to-Back & Back-to-Front, which isn't rotating at all. This only moves the tire under heavier load (the front tires) to the lighter end of the car, and vice versa. This only helps a little unless you spin your tires often causing a visible wear difference between the front and back.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Asymmetric directional tires are not used very often, and they are typically used only in very specific circumstances. For example, the OEM tires for the Acura NSX are corner-specific (yes, four different parts numbers for the tires) and are not intended to be rotated. This is done to maximize the car's performance, by designing each tire not only for the specific car, but also for the corner of the car on which it will be used.
However, rotating front to back and back to front is indeed rotating the tires, to even out the wear. This is how most summer tires (directional, symmetric) are rotated. Again, as long as the tread is wearing reasonably uniformly across its width, it works just fine.
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08-03-2008, 12:55 PM
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Re: Tire Rotation for Dumped Cars (fxpguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fxpguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My tires are symmetrical and directional. Since I got some bad inner tread wear, I need to remount/flip them anyways so that I can get the good edge of the tread to the inner edge so that I can wear it down as well. And since I am remounting the tires and swapping sides, the direction of rotation stays correct anyways.
At least this is my logic of how I should even out my inner tread wear. Makes sense to me, since I would eventually wear both edges down evenly in the long run, rather than constantly wearing the same inner tread down.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, that makes sense. The most practical way to use such tires, if they are wearing unevenly due to camber, is to rotate them as often as you like, front to back and back to front, so that all four accumulate the same amount of treadwear. Then, halfway through their treadlife, flip them on the rims so that they can be used on the other side of the car. Which is what you're saying.
If you haven't had your car aligned in a while, that might be worthwhile too. Often, treadwear that is not uniform is due to improper toe settings, rather than camber. It can also be caused by suspension problems (worn bushings, bent tie rod or control arm, etc). It may very well be that it's just due to excessive camber, but you should keep an eye on those other things as well.
At least this is my logic of how I should even out my inner tread wear. Makes sense to me, since I would eventually wear both edges down evenly in the long run, rather than constantly wearing the same inner tread down.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, that makes sense. The most practical way to use such tires, if they are wearing unevenly due to camber, is to rotate them as often as you like, front to back and back to front, so that all four accumulate the same amount of treadwear. Then, halfway through their treadlife, flip them on the rims so that they can be used on the other side of the car. Which is what you're saying.
If you haven't had your car aligned in a while, that might be worthwhile too. Often, treadwear that is not uniform is due to improper toe settings, rather than camber. It can also be caused by suspension problems (worn bushings, bent tie rod or control arm, etc). It may very well be that it's just due to excessive camber, but you should keep an eye on those other things as well.
08-03-2008, 02:55 PM
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Re: Tire Rotation for Dumped Cars (nsxtasy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Kronn 98SH, while nothing that you say is exactly wrong, I don't agree with much of your advice, as a practical matter. To wit...</TD></TR></TABLE>
I didn't offer any advice, I merely explained the diagrams.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Most summer tires are symmetric directional tires. Most of the time, you can rotate such tires front to back and back to front, keeping them on the same side of the car. You don't need to flip the tires unless the wear across the width of the tread is uneven.</TD></TR></TABLE>
He's worried about uneven wear due to aggressive negative camber, so this would be useless.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Pattern B doesn't make any sense to me, and I've never seen it recommended.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's a true rotation of directional tires, back to front and side to side. It is the MOST logical way of rotating tires when you're worried about uneven wear.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Asymmetric directional tires are not used very often, and they are typically used only in very specific circumstances. For example, the OEM tires for the Acura NSX are corner-specific (yes, four different parts numbers for the tires) and are not intended to be rotated. This is done to maximize the car's performance, by designing each tire not only for the specific car, but also for the corner of the car on which it will be used.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yep, not recommended if treadlife is a concern. Which is what I already said.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">However, rotating front to back and back to front is indeed rotating the tires, to even out the wear. This is how most summer tires (directional, symmetric) are rotated. Again, as long as the tread is wearing reasonably uniformly across its width, it works just fine.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Again, he's worried about uneven wear.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes, that makes sense. The most practical way to use such tires, if they are wearing unevenly due to camber, is to rotate them as often as you like, front to back and back to front, so that all four accumulate the same amount of treadwear. Then, halfway through their treadlife, flip them on the rims so that they can be used on the other side of the car. Which is what you're saying.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Pattern B would make much more sense, rotating every 3000 miles or so. Keeping the tires on the same side of the car until the inside of the tire is bald just doesn't seem like good advice. Pattern B would guarantee that the tire wears evenly throughout the entire life of the tire.
I didn't offer any advice, I merely explained the diagrams.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Most summer tires are symmetric directional tires. Most of the time, you can rotate such tires front to back and back to front, keeping them on the same side of the car. You don't need to flip the tires unless the wear across the width of the tread is uneven.</TD></TR></TABLE>
He's worried about uneven wear due to aggressive negative camber, so this would be useless.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Pattern B doesn't make any sense to me, and I've never seen it recommended.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's a true rotation of directional tires, back to front and side to side. It is the MOST logical way of rotating tires when you're worried about uneven wear.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Asymmetric directional tires are not used very often, and they are typically used only in very specific circumstances. For example, the OEM tires for the Acura NSX are corner-specific (yes, four different parts numbers for the tires) and are not intended to be rotated. This is done to maximize the car's performance, by designing each tire not only for the specific car, but also for the corner of the car on which it will be used.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yep, not recommended if treadlife is a concern. Which is what I already said.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">However, rotating front to back and back to front is indeed rotating the tires, to even out the wear. This is how most summer tires (directional, symmetric) are rotated. Again, as long as the tread is wearing reasonably uniformly across its width, it works just fine.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Again, he's worried about uneven wear.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes, that makes sense. The most practical way to use such tires, if they are wearing unevenly due to camber, is to rotate them as often as you like, front to back and back to front, so that all four accumulate the same amount of treadwear. Then, halfway through their treadlife, flip them on the rims so that they can be used on the other side of the car. Which is what you're saying.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Pattern B would make much more sense, rotating every 3000 miles or so. Keeping the tires on the same side of the car until the inside of the tire is bald just doesn't seem like good advice. Pattern B would guarantee that the tire wears evenly throughout the entire life of the tire.
08-03-2008, 03:38 PM
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Re: Tire Rotation for Dumped Cars (fxpguy)
My mistake, my tires are actually non-directional symmetrical (all season tires).
LEFT FRONT TIRE:
RIGHT FRONT TIRE:
Alignment Report:
SUPER Negative Camber. And some crazy toe.
My rears are actually fine. There is no uneven wear, even though they had crazy toe and negative camber. Guess FWD really wears down the front tires faster.
Thanks guys for your input. Greatly appreciated!
Modified by fxpguy at 4:51 PM 8/3/2008
LEFT FRONT TIRE:
RIGHT FRONT TIRE:
Alignment Report:
SUPER Negative Camber. And some crazy toe.
My rears are actually fine. There is no uneven wear, even though they had crazy toe and negative camber. Guess FWD really wears down the front tires faster.
Thanks guys for your input. Greatly appreciated!
Modified by fxpguy at 4:51 PM 8/3/2008
08-03-2008, 03:45 PM
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Re: Tire Rotation for Dumped Cars (Kronn 98SH)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kronn 98SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I didn't offer any advice, I merely explained the diagrams.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Even though in some cases they don't make sense.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kronn 98SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">He's worried about uneven wear due to aggressive negative camber, so this would be useless.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's NOT useless; it's perfectly good advice for those who don't have camber problems. Please don't post insults - it only shows your ignorance.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kronn 98SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's a true rotation of directional tires, back to front and side to side. It is the MOST logical way of rotating tires when you're worried about uneven wear.</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, it isn't, because it only moves the tires between two opposite corners. The MOST logical way of rotating tires when you have the ability to move them from one side of the car to the other is to use them on ALL FOUR corners, which the "pattern B" doesn't accomplish. That's why that pattern is virtually never recommended by tire experts.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kronn 98SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Keeping the tires on the same side of the car until the inside of the tire is bald just doesn't seem like good advice.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Absolutely WRONG - AS LONG AS the tires are wearing evenly across the tread, in which case there is no reason to bother flipping the tires, and pattern A will work just fine. For this particular user, with his problems with uneven treadwear - which may or may not be due to camber, as noted above - the treadwear can be evened out by flipping the tires on the rims. For most people, that is unnecessary and a waste of money.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kronn 98SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Pattern B would guarantee that the tire wears evenly throughout the entire life of the tire.</TD></TR></TABLE>
So would the normal FWD front-back rotation, flipping the tires halfway through their lives. And that rotation avoids the unevenness that can result from the tire being used on only two corners of the car, rather than four. More specifically, if you use the tire up halfway on one front corner and then put it on the opposite rear corner, it won't get as much wear as it did on the front (with an FWD car) so you won't have all four tires wearing out at about the same time. That's why it's preferable to use a front-to-rear rotation pattern, flipping the tires halfway through their life, rather than Pattern B, which requires you to pay to have your tires flipped every time you rotate them, and never uses the tire on all four corners of the car, which would even out the wear. That's why Pattern B makes no sense at all.
Even though in some cases they don't make sense.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kronn 98SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">He's worried about uneven wear due to aggressive negative camber, so this would be useless.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's NOT useless; it's perfectly good advice for those who don't have camber problems. Please don't post insults - it only shows your ignorance.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kronn 98SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's a true rotation of directional tires, back to front and side to side. It is the MOST logical way of rotating tires when you're worried about uneven wear.</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, it isn't, because it only moves the tires between two opposite corners. The MOST logical way of rotating tires when you have the ability to move them from one side of the car to the other is to use them on ALL FOUR corners, which the "pattern B" doesn't accomplish. That's why that pattern is virtually never recommended by tire experts.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kronn 98SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Keeping the tires on the same side of the car until the inside of the tire is bald just doesn't seem like good advice.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Absolutely WRONG - AS LONG AS the tires are wearing evenly across the tread, in which case there is no reason to bother flipping the tires, and pattern A will work just fine. For this particular user, with his problems with uneven treadwear - which may or may not be due to camber, as noted above - the treadwear can be evened out by flipping the tires on the rims. For most people, that is unnecessary and a waste of money.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kronn 98SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Pattern B would guarantee that the tire wears evenly throughout the entire life of the tire.</TD></TR></TABLE>
So would the normal FWD front-back rotation, flipping the tires halfway through their lives. And that rotation avoids the unevenness that can result from the tire being used on only two corners of the car, rather than four. More specifically, if you use the tire up halfway on one front corner and then put it on the opposite rear corner, it won't get as much wear as it did on the front (with an FWD car) so you won't have all four tires wearing out at about the same time. That's why it's preferable to use a front-to-rear rotation pattern, flipping the tires halfway through their life, rather than Pattern B, which requires you to pay to have your tires flipped every time you rotate them, and never uses the tire on all four corners of the car, which would even out the wear. That's why Pattern B makes no sense at all.
08-03-2008, 03:53 PM
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Re: Tire Rotation for Dumped Cars (fxpguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fxpguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My mistake, my tires are actually non-directional symmetrical (all season tires).</TD></TR></TABLE>
That means you can flip each tire or not, and use it on any corner of the car. Therefore you want to do whatever evens out the treadwear. I would flip them once (now) and that's the only time I would flip them. I also recommend rotating them using Pattern A above, and you can do this as frequently as you like. The flipping may even out the treadwear, but to the extent it is caused by toe (now fixed) rather than camber, it may not even it out at all.
When I am rotating my tires, I generally try to keep the tires with the most tread on the front (on my FWD car) where they wear faster. That way, all four tend to wear out at the same time, and I can replace them all as a set.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fxpguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">SUPER Negative Camber. And some crazy toe.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not surprising. As I previously mentioned, toe is more often a cause of uneven treadwear (such as you've experienced) than camber. People automatically think it's camber because it's generally easier to see and visualize camber and how it would affect treadwear, but toe angles tend to be the more common culprit.
The problem you have now is, you don't know how much the uneven treadwear was caused by the camber, and how much by the toe. To the extent it was caused by the toe - and again, I'm betting this is the bigger part - it should no longer be happening, now that you have the toe aligned properly. To the extent it was caused by the camber, it will continue to be happening. I would just flip the tires and see how it goes, but don't be surprised if the inner part of the tread doesn't wear down as unevenly as it was doing before the alignment.
That means you can flip each tire or not, and use it on any corner of the car. Therefore you want to do whatever evens out the treadwear. I would flip them once (now) and that's the only time I would flip them. I also recommend rotating them using Pattern A above, and you can do this as frequently as you like. The flipping may even out the treadwear, but to the extent it is caused by toe (now fixed) rather than camber, it may not even it out at all.
When I am rotating my tires, I generally try to keep the tires with the most tread on the front (on my FWD car) where they wear faster. That way, all four tend to wear out at the same time, and I can replace them all as a set.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fxpguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">SUPER Negative Camber. And some crazy toe.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not surprising. As I previously mentioned, toe is more often a cause of uneven treadwear (such as you've experienced) than camber. People automatically think it's camber because it's generally easier to see and visualize camber and how it would affect treadwear, but toe angles tend to be the more common culprit.
The problem you have now is, you don't know how much the uneven treadwear was caused by the camber, and how much by the toe. To the extent it was caused by the toe - and again, I'm betting this is the bigger part - it should no longer be happening, now that you have the toe aligned properly. To the extent it was caused by the camber, it will continue to be happening. I would just flip the tires and see how it goes, but don't be surprised if the inner part of the tread doesn't wear down as unevenly as it was doing before the alignment.
08-03-2008, 03:57 PM
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Re: Tire Rotation for Dumped Cars (nsxtasy)
Thanks for the input. So is the fact that my rear tires are fine (i.e. no uneven tread wear) even though the toe and camber are pretty extreme is due to FWD? I thought excessive toe would cause the tire to drag across the ground causing wear.
08-03-2008, 04:05 PM
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Re: Tire Rotation for Dumped Cars (fxpguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fxpguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thanks for the input. So is the fact that my rear tires are fine (i.e. no uneven tread wear) even though the toe and camber are pretty extreme is due to FWD?</TD></TR></TABLE>
It could be due to a number of reasons. The biggest reason is probably that, on a FWD car, front tires wear more than rear tires (since they are doing all the accelerating as well as all the turning, and the slip angle when understeering during turning tends to happen there more so than in the rear). So the rears haven't had a chance to wear all that much.
Also you can see from your alignment that the toe in the rear was in the opposite direction from the front; one end was toe in, the other was toe out. Generally zero toe tends to have the most neutral effect on tire wear, and you'll probably get more even tire wear on both ends of the car now that both ends are close to zero toe. But that may have been a factor too.
Again, though, I think you would find that most of the uneven tire wear will go away.
In any case, it will be easy enough to tell. Regardless of whether you flip the tires on the rims now (I would), you should be rotating them so that the tires that were on the rear are on the front, and the ones on the front are on the rear. That means that the tires that were on your rear and weren't wearing as much, will start to wear more. This will be a good test - you can see if the wear on those tires is now fairly even (which means it was probably the toe that was causing it before) or uneven (which means it is the camber that remains, unless you have some other problem in your suspension).
(For this rotation, after flipping the tires, you can use either Pattern A or Pattern B, but after that, I recommend using Pattern A as frequently as you want, without flipping the tires. As I mentioned, I like putting the tires with more tread on the front, to even out the wear; if you put the tires with more tread on the rear, that will make the other two tires wear out faster. OTOH some recommend putting the tires with more tread on the rear, to promote understeer and avoid oversteer. Your call.)
Modified by nsxtasy at 7:43 PM 8/3/2008
It could be due to a number of reasons. The biggest reason is probably that, on a FWD car, front tires wear more than rear tires (since they are doing all the accelerating as well as all the turning, and the slip angle when understeering during turning tends to happen there more so than in the rear). So the rears haven't had a chance to wear all that much.
Also you can see from your alignment that the toe in the rear was in the opposite direction from the front; one end was toe in, the other was toe out. Generally zero toe tends to have the most neutral effect on tire wear, and you'll probably get more even tire wear on both ends of the car now that both ends are close to zero toe. But that may have been a factor too.
Again, though, I think you would find that most of the uneven tire wear will go away.
In any case, it will be easy enough to tell. Regardless of whether you flip the tires on the rims now (I would), you should be rotating them so that the tires that were on the rear are on the front, and the ones on the front are on the rear. That means that the tires that were on your rear and weren't wearing as much, will start to wear more. This will be a good test - you can see if the wear on those tires is now fairly even (which means it was probably the toe that was causing it before) or uneven (which means it is the camber that remains, unless you have some other problem in your suspension).
(For this rotation, after flipping the tires, you can use either Pattern A or Pattern B, but after that, I recommend using Pattern A as frequently as you want, without flipping the tires. As I mentioned, I like putting the tires with more tread on the front, to even out the wear; if you put the tires with more tread on the rear, that will make the other two tires wear out faster. OTOH some recommend putting the tires with more tread on the rear, to promote understeer and avoid oversteer. Your call.)
Modified by nsxtasy at 7:43 PM 8/3/2008
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