ebydrc

ive been looking around for a cheaper "budget" mill, i dont have too much exp. in cnc milling nor cad design and honestly dont know to much about mills in general. but i found this looks like a pretty solid piece and a good buy, im looking to be able to mill simple head flanges and other misc simple flanges.

http://www.cadcamcadcam.com/in...D=201

what do you guys think? discuss TIA

jaydmcrx

I think it would be a huge waste of money. If you gonna get something like that get an old hurco cnc off ebay or something. you will be very limited on the quality of work, and how big of stock you can work with. That is my opinion.

ebydrc

im looking do do smaller sizes, flange 10" in length and 5" wide or less would like the mill at least 1/2 thick or more. what are other cheaper options???

2kjettaguy

There's no such thing as a budget cnc mill. If you want to make good parts, you need good equipment and tooling. There's no getting around it. Anything that sits on a workbench is a toy.

My question is - what are you really interested in? Designing and making parts, or just starting a small business?

If you're looking to make good parts, I would start thinking about where you're going to build your shop, what your going to build, what equipment you need, and lastly where you're going to get the money to start off. It takes significant equipment to make quality parts.

If you're looking to start a small flange business, get in tight with a local waterjet shop. Maybe even get a job there. Waterjet is one of the best ways to make flanges fast. CNC mills are great, but 90% of the time more precision than the customer needs, and more cost than 100% of the customer base is looking for. The flange marketplace is flooded with suppliers. There are people out there willing to make flanges for pennies more than the cost of material.

Not busting your chops, I just don't want to see you waste hard earned money on a toy. (I own a desktop mill and am intimately familiar with its capabilities)

Howitt

that desktop cnc mill will just **** you off because it wont have enough power and take forever.
If you take your time you can get a real machine for not much
I got a FANUC RoboDrill for $1900, After Rigging Trucking, Electric Tooling etc I had about $1100 more in to it, But I own my own trucks and fork lifts and have connections for stuff cheap. My Steel Stock costs me $.08 a pound, I purchase my Hanita EndMills for $9-12 a lb. I get them from a precision facility and once they got to .001 before the stated size they throw them out

My Costs for a CNC Machine
RoboDrill w/ 4th axis $1900
Cost of Rigging and Trucking 75 Miles $300
(2) Kurt d675 Vises $100
5 Gallons of Blaser Coolant $150
Electrican to Hook Up Machine $300 including wire conduit breaker etc
Used BT30 Tooling and Pull Studs $350
Total about $3000
I still need a subplate, and an upgrade to cam software at an *** hump of a cost prob 5k


Yes my shop is a mess in that pictures because we had to move so much **** to put the machine where we wanted it to be and they big forklift blew a cylinder moving it

ebydrc

2kjettaguy - i already own a fabrication and turbo supplus business, i deal alot of misc flanges and im just getting pissed at paying what i do even in volumns. i think ill build one, looks simple enough.

Howitt - exactly the line im looking at currently, just kinda of make my own unit, i have several routers and bar stock around, it shouldnt be anything to build one, there are alot of forums regarding diy cnc aswell.

rlockwood

bear in mind that a router will not fare well cutting flanges out of steel.

for steel you need rigidity and horsepower.

a true milling spindle, spindle motor and WEIGHT will go a long ways.

IMO, pick up a used throw away machine (like a fadal, haas, hurco, bridgeport cnc, etc.) Look for one with box ways (typically turcite) or atleast LARGE linear ways. And look for a used/older model. You can often find these machines (specifically the stripped "tool room" style, non enclosed) for quite cheap.

"desktop" and "router" are words to STAY AWAY FROM if you plan on making products out of metal.

Howitt is definitely on the right track with his machine. those robodrills are fast, dont recall them being all that great at handling side loads, but fast (especially for their time)

I wouldnt reccomend spending $5000 on any cad/cam software right off the bat, though. While these days we're working in surfcam and mastercam, about 95% of our programming was done in $500 Bobcad (100% at my old shop) and its still what every one of our programming staff chooses to use for simple 2.5d programming. Its just faster.

------------------------------------------

but what do I know.. I just program and run these things 60 hours a week

ebydrc

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rlockwood &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">bear in mind that a router will not fare well cutting flanges out of steel.

for steel you need rigidity and horsepower.

a true milling spindle, spindle motor and WEIGHT will go a long ways.

IMO, pick up a used throw away machine (like a fadal, haas, hurco, bridgeport cnc, etc.) Look for one with box ways (typically turcite) or atleast LARGE linear ways. And look for a used/older model. You can often find these machines (specifically the stripped "tool room" style, non enclosed) for quite cheap.

"desktop" and "router" are words to STAY AWAY FROM if you plan on making products out of metal.

Howitt is definitely on the right track with his machine. those robodrills are fast, dont recall them being all that great at handling side loads, but fast (especially for their time)

I wouldnt reccomend spending $5000 on any cad/cam software right off the bat, though. While these days we're working in surfcam and mastercam, about 95% of our programming was done in $500 Bobcad (100% at my old shop) and its still what every one of our programming staff chooses to use for simple 2.5d programming. Its just faster.

------------------------------------------

but what do I know.. I just program and run these things 60 hours a week </TD></TR></TABLE>

well, 99% will be from mild steel and alu. like mentioned before, i think the best bet it to make a stronger machine, with a fast strong router. seems that you get the best bang for the buck as well.

weiRtech

i would not waste your $ going the route you keep gravitating back to in this thread. it seems you already have your mind made up even with everyone suggesting the same as me.

doing the desk top router thing will probably take 5 hours to make a flange that a real cnc machining center will be able to make in 15 minutes. you will not be able to take very large cuts, you will be extremely limited on tooling size and you will probably stall the machine out occassionally. having the proper tool for the job makes all the difference... we all know that!

i would look into a haas tool room mill. they have a pay as you go lease program. you buy a chunk of time on your machine and when it runs out, you just buy some more time. this way you aren't stuck with a huge lease payment every month even if your machine is not up and running making you money.

you need to either sit down with somone who has a programming background, or a machining background... or better yet, you need to spend some time watching someone do some work in a shop to get an idea of what you are getting yourself into. they don't call them "skilled trades" because people learn it overnight.

2kjettaguy

I also agree you need to talk to some machine shop owners face to face. I own 2 vertical machining centers and we cut alot of flanges from 1018 mild steel for our internal use (downpipes and exhaust systems). There's alot more to it than just throwing a drawing at the machine. The machines I use are $40k a piece and that doesn't count all the auxilary equipment, software, and years of learning it took me to get this far.

I also own a desktop mini mill. I HAVE used this mill to cut flanges, molds, etc. Now we use it only to cut plastics. For example, I once cut a 1/4" thich 3-bolt downpipe flange on this machine and it took 4 hours to cut. I had to stand beside the machine and shoot the part with coolant every pass. The spindle motor is 1/5th HP. It will spin fast, but makes no power.

My VMCs cut a flange in two pass, rough and cleanup straight through the material. It takes about 2.5 minutes per flange. These are 3" 3-bolt flanges with a variety of hole options. We cut 100-500 flanges a week.

With that said, I still don't even reccommend using CNC mills to cut flanges. It's a better business venture to use a 2D non friction type cutting process like waterjet, HD plasma, or laser. For every flange I make I have to build a precision fixture to hold the raw stock. The raw stock is pre-drilled, then loaded onto the fixture once all setup. I have to use cold-roll steel because surface finishing thin hot roll steel eats carbide inserts. Tooling is incredibly expensive.

Evan

Howitt

You dont want a router, The biggest router motor Ive seen is ~3hp. If you want to try out CNC get a old Bridgeport Series II they are 4hp it will run you about 3-5k loaded up with tooling and get in you in to the game and see if you want to expand.

The Only other tip I can give you is dont go in debt all my equipment is paid for except for one item on lease with a payment of $313 a month, yet it generates more than $300 a month if it runs more than 4 hours.

I wouldnt rely on your cnc machine to pay the bills at first either. I have 3 cnc machines and hardly use them. I make more money with my forklift and bidder # brokering equipment than making parts. my cnc machines are more of a side hobby. which I might put in to production on a few non automotive related parts with a awesome 400% margin clean $300+ per part that fits in your hand

EVAN btw the way did you get your Sharp Fixed? or did the replacement show up?

GTiR NX

If I was a shop owner and had to make flanges a few times a week, I would just take my time make a few templates of flanges that I would come across on a regular basis and use a plasma cuter to whip them off when I needed to make some. Clean them up on a belt sander and a quick pass with a die grinder. Seems to me allot more cost effective than buying or building a CNC mill. You can cut allot of flanges for cheep with that method.
Thats what I do at my I work if I need to make allot of some thing.

ebydrc

no, i know what your saying expecialy about the desktop routers, they seems to be more for hobby stuff like plastic and wood, our shop is in a pretty remote location in AR, so machine shops with the proper equipment isnt readily avaible. we have one shop the has a cnc plasma, looks like it was made in the 80's and they use it to cut thin sheet alu for pontoon (sp) boats, ive talked to him briefly about doing some flanges, other then that shop the nearest place is about three hours away, which i dont want to do.

*whats the opinion on making your own cnc bed useing a high power high torque milling head

*converting http://www.grizzly.com/products/G8689 to cnc?

i looked around last night at used older mills, problem is i couldnt find anything in a cheaper price range, the only ones i have found were several hundred miles away, and frieght would cost more then the mill itself.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by weiRtech &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i would not waste your $ going the route you keep gravitating back to in this thread. it seems you already have your mind made up even with everyone suggesting the same as me.

doing the desk top router thing will probably take 5 hours to make a flange that a real cnc machining center will be able to make in 15 minutes. you will not be able to take very large cuts, you will be extremely limited on tooling size and you will probably stall the machine out occassionally. having the proper tool for the job makes all the difference... we all know that!

i would look into a haas tool room mill. they have a pay as you go lease program. you buy a chunk of time on your machine and when it runs out, you just buy some more time. this way you aren't stuck with a huge lease payment every month even if your machine is not up and running making you money.

you need to either sit down with somone who has a programming background, or a machining background... or better yet, you need to spend some time watching someone do some work in a shop to get an idea of what you are getting yourself into. they don't call them "skilled trades" because people learn it overnight.</TD></TR></TABLE>

2kjettaguy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Howitt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> EVAN btw the way did you get your Sharp Fixed? or did the replacement show up?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's being swapped out tomorrow Should be running by Monday afternoon. The dealer is coming down to do all the setup, so I don't mind waiting to keep things under warranty. We're expanding our building, so I'll be busy swinging a hammer this weekend

.RTErnie

so are you in Oregon or Arkansas?

ebydrc

Eric, im in Arkansas currently.

hootiehoo

that grizzley thing is junk. its basically a drill press with a movable table. it isnt designed for axial loads...

ebydrc

yeah for sure, im looking at tormate plasma cutters right now, looks like the have their 3 axis setups where you build your own table, and you can swap out plasma cutter to router, that looks like it could be a promising option and worth shelling out some extra $$

tony1

How can you possibly justify the cost of a CNC to make flanges?

You can buy flanges dirt cheap.

ebydrc

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How can you possibly justify the cost of a CNC to make flanges?

You can buy flanges dirt cheap. </TD></TR></TABLE>

reason why im looking for cnc is for specific head flanges, misc more complex pieces (not flanges) and velocity stacks, stuff like that, vband clamps and turbo flanges are super high priced for whats in them, i use enough and knwo several people that use plenty to justify the cost imo.

tony1

Cool, well hopefully that works out for you. Seems kinda like walking past the dollar to pick up the quarter to me.

0PSI2HI

We run into this every day w/ people claiming flanges are priced to high and they if they had a CNC they could make them for $X. Problem is you dont have a CNC, nor do you have a programmer, nor do you have an operator. It's not as cheap or as easy as everyone "thinks" it is.

To make v-band adequetly you'll need a lathe, making them on a CNC would not be practical. We've had 2 machines here and they first machine was just to old and to slow that it asn't feasable anymore to use to make the parts we needed to make. Unless your doing a lot of your own personal use of the flanges a CNC will not be profitable for making flanges.

Howitt

I dont think you get it, you just need to go buy a router, then cry to us when it doesnt work for what you want
You wont get a 4 x 8 torchmate for less than $15k when its up and running let alone the the extras involved. Plasma has its place but it not great at small holes and it has a bevel to it. also a router table is meant for wood foam mdf etc not metal, it wont take the side loading required in milling

Have you calculated your ROI for this purchase and time period for you to break even on the item you plan on producing, When do you start making profit if you look at the #'s for the items your stating from personal experience its not real promising.

Im not telling you what to do, you need to make that choice but there is always somewhere out there who can do it better faster cheaper. If I decided to make flanges and sell them on honda-tech you couldnt touch my prices with out loosing money.If your machine isnt running its not making any money. I can produce a 1/2" B series Head flange w/ labor for less than a small value meal at mcdonalds. You need to send your flanges out to be quoted from multiple companies rather than invest in equipment you dont have a game plan for, youll be surprised in the price difference Ive had the same part range from $9 to $93 when being quoted

Last question do you actually have the time to stand in front of the machine and make it produce parts. I dont make flanges because I dont have time I make way more money selling equipment than making parts. If I had a robot to load and unload the machine you see flanges for sale by me

ebydrc

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Howitt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Last question do you actually have the time to stand in front of the machine and make it produce parts. I dont make flanges because I dont have time I make way more money selling equipment than making parts. If I had a robot to load and unload the machine you see flanges for sale by me</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah thats ohh so true, i dont have anything set in stone, nor do i plan on making a purchase anytime soon, just throughing some idea's out there to see what opinions i get, i dont really have any plans for one at all just kind of thinking out loud.

i understand completely, were your comming from and agree.

rlockwood

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ebydrc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

well, 99% will be from mild steel and alu. like mentioned before, i think the best bet it to make a stronger machine, with a fast strong router. seems that you get the best bang for the buck as well. </TD></TR></TABLE>


just for reference, in stainless and harder steels we run most tools under 1500rpm, with only inserted roughing tools running near 2000.

even in our 7075, we rarely see 10,000 rpm.

I'm not sure how else to say this

you dont want a router for metal