vtec8200

1996 Integra Rs


If I drive the car more than 5 mins then shut it off for more than 1 minute, it will crank but not start. I either have to crank many many times (10-15 tries) full throttle until it fires up very slowly and missfires for about 5 secs then starts, or wait 1 hour until the engine has cooled down.

What you need to know:
-Dizzy replaced by a used one in good shape, solved problem for about 2 weeks then it came back, maybe a coincidence.
-Dizzy then replaced by brand new one, with new rotor, cap, wires, plugs gapped at 44, fuel filter also recent, still same problem.
-Problem is engine heat related, as soon as it gets slightly warm, if I shut it off it won't start, and I have to wait 1 hour or more for the problem to go away, until the engine is cool.
-I hear the fuel pump prime, the main relay clicks and the check engine light goes off.
-If I drive the car a long time, shut it off then re-start imediately it will start like normal, if I wait 10-15 seconds it will start but hesitate a little for a second on start up, if I wait more than one minute it will take 2-5 mins of 5 second cranking before stumbling and slowly firing up.
-When it finally starts it smells rich, a bit of gray smoke, then idles at 2800rpms for a long time (3-5 mins), even if the engine is warm. If I try to give it sharp throttle it will stumble before reving up (that slowly goes away after about 30 seconds or so), feels like the iacv is fully open (iacv cleaned a month ago when I already had the no-start issue).
-No CEL
-No problem or symptoms when the engine is running or on cold start, runs and starts great.
-When it finally starts after cranking for a while, the engine seems to be firing in the exhaust, a very distinctive metalic sound in the exhaust after the header, like if timing way too retarded, and has caused me 3 exhaust leaks (exhaust pretty rusty too) at the cat and resonator, the firing in the exhaust happens only when the engine is stumbling while firing up, lasts about 2-3 seconds.


So what does the engine need to start that can be affected by engine heat, appart from the main relay, fuel pump, and distributor?

I am lost, and I need this car to be reliable since it is my work car and daily driver, I can't even shut it off to refuel!
Thanks!

Nottheonion

Sounds like the the motor is getting flooded some how

When heat gets soaked into the injectors it causes thermal breakdown

A injector could be dripping fuel into a cylinder

Causing the hard starts, rich, stumbling.

vtec8200

Interesting, thank you, I will check if obd1 and obd2 injectors are compatible for a test. I wanted to try another engine coolant temperature sensor also, what do you guys think?

Nottheonion

If it was coolant temp i would think it would read high.

When your motor over heats the ecu pulls fuel and timing to protect it

Your motor is getting flooded

When it happens again pull the plugs and see if they are wet with fuel

vtec8200

Yes I will check that this week-end. I was thinking about the injectors, if one leaked it would at least fire up on 3 cylinders, even on 2? But that all 4 go bad because of the heat problem that would seem strange wouldn't it? It just happened 30 mins ago, I went to get my hair cut, stopped the car 1hour and it wouldn't start, it took at least 15 tries and it smelled like unburnt fuel. For reference it is 40f outside and the engine was cold but a bit warm to the touch still.

Caoboy

How is your fuel pump?

vtec8200

Doesn't make strange sounds, primes good, when it doesn't start I always put the key to the off position, then back on, and it primes everytime, main relay clicks, cel goes off. When the car is running it runs fine and I've made long trips with it, fuel level has no effect on the problem.

vtec8200

Well I have cleaned the ground at the thermostat with sand paper, there was a lot of corrosion when I removed it, so far it seems to have solved the problem, I have tried starting it many times with the engine hot so far and it works every time, if the problem doesn't disapear I'll report back.

vtec8200

Well I haven't had the issue since I cleanded the ground on the thermostat housing, but just now the car shut-off by itself while driving, and wouldn't start again, this is the first time it has shut off while I was driving, I am starting to freak out! Should I put the old distributor back on? What to do now? Dammit!

Nottheonion

Now is when you find whats missing

Spark
Compression
Air
Fuel
Timing

Then go from there

vtec8200

Thanks nottheonion for the help
At that moment I had no fuel, the main relay was not clicking, the CEL wouldn't turn off, and when I shorted the diagnostic connector on the passenger side the check engine wouldn't flash. This was the first time the main relay would not click (I would ALWAYS check when I had the no start issue). So I removed the ground on the thermostat housing again, cleaned it again, replaced the bolt this time with a clean one, and voila all is fine...

So that ground is very picky! The thermstat housing was sanded to shiny metal, same for the connector, but because the bolt was not clean the contact wasn't good.

Nottheonion

If you have some extra cash buy yourself a good multimeter

I use a fluke 179 but that might be a bit much for you. It can be used for many things tho.

In a situation like yours i wouldve cleaned that ground, bolted it back up, then checked for continuity from the thermostat ground to the ground pin on the ecu ( a21 i think)

If the thermostat ground was indeed not making a good contact you wouldve seen a high resistance reading on the meter then after you cleaned it up it will have shown a low resistance reading ( less than 1ohm)

Pick up a multimeter and youll be able to diagnose problems faster and more accurately

vtec8200

thanks again for the help, I will do that this week-end.
The problem came back, now If I wiggle the ground wiring, the contact goes on and off for the main relay. I have a feeling I have two seperate problems though, one for the contact of the main relay, and one for the no-start-when-engine-hot issue. I will update back after what I do to it this week-end. thanks again.

vtec8200

Ok so here is where I am at, I noticed that the wires going the ground terminal were bad, I pulled two wires out of the terminal gently, they weren't even secured in properly. I thought, THERE IS MY PROBLEM! I repaired the wire properly with a good connector and same guage wiring, I re-threaded the hole, used a shiny screw, I was sure the problem was fixed, but no, I let it idle for 10 mins with the hood shut and when I shut it off, it wouldn't restart, so I guess that was a seperate problem...

EDIT: I have spark, I put my finger on the end of the spark plug and got a good shock, so I think I have good spark, there is not fuel on the end of the spark plugs, I have replaced my fuel filter 5000km ago it was very old and rusty, I will remove the one I have now and check if it is full of debris, I will clean it.

I have also noticed a buzzing sound coming from my IACV when I shut the car off when it is warm, the same sound a relay makes when it has low power and is switching between on and off really fast. I have unplugged it and still no start wether I touch the gas or not. I will replace it anyway I have a spare one.

vtec8200

Another update, I replaced the iacv with a lower mileage one that I cleaned, problem still there...I noticed the vacuum hose from the FPR to the intake manfold was dry rotted and pierced, I replaced that, problem still there...

I removed my fuel filter, took it to my sink and cleaned it and blew through it, no dirt or nothing came out, put it back on, now it starts every time when it's hot, tried it multiple times....bad fuel filter? coincidence? I don't know, I'll keep you guys updated...

vtec8200

So after removing and blowing through my fuel filter and putting it back on, I let the car run for a while and shut off and started it backup many times, worked everytime. I drove 1 km to the convenience store, shut it off. When I came back out I got stuck there for 10 mins....problem still not solved.

So if I have spark, and the timing is set at 16 btdc, and it cranks normally with good compression, what could cause the injectors not firing when the engine is warm? Isn't the ground for the injectors the thermostat ground? Any help apreciated.