No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
#51
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Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
The misinformation comes from posts such as:
You say it may not be necessary, but with 225's up front, my car drove like complete ***. after 3 alignments. put in a camber kit, aligned it to the same toe specs as before, drives 100x better. excessive camber will cause the tires to "grab" rutts, bumps, etc making the car feel "darty" and also gives you less of a contact patch with the road in straight line driving. It WILL still cause uneven tread wear. regardless of what you say
However, the mention to stick to the right offset is valid and correct.
And we have supporting evidence of the theory:
super slammed cars dont run camber kits!!! i've seen the damage the ck does when slammed =S learned from experience....also i've noticed than 40 series tires do wear on the inside even if its properly aligned, gotta try the 50's see if they last me longer or wear evenly this time around.
Is Patrick's theory (which I agree with in principle) correct? Or is blaze the chemi's and my actual experience correct, or anomalies? This one I can't answer. My personal experience is too small of a sample size to make any meaningful conclusions from.
Something to keep in mind. The OEM alignment settings for most of our FWD Hondas were not created with even tire wear as the priority. Rear toe is specified as toe in, which causes uneven wear, but also causes high speed stability, understeer, and helps provide braking stability. Those 3 things, by far, outweigh even tire wear, from a manufacturers standpoint.
Something else to keep in mind. No alignment can save your tires from poor driving habits. Burn outs, tire lockup under braking, sliding the tail through a turn, turning sharper than the point of understeer starting, all of these things ruin tires by wearing them in ways not seen by a normal driver.
This thread has some useful gems of information hidden in it, but it is still overpowered by a massive amount of absurd crap.
Have I helped it any, or just contributed to the mess?
#52
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Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
Tire contact patch is also determined by camber. If you have -4* of camber the tire is not in contact with the road the full width of the tire. if you air it down enough to achieve full contact, you will have (a) crappy handling from too low of tire pressures (b) lessened gas mileage from improperly inflated tires (c) shitty tire wear
SO i guess if yes, you are a douche bag that just want to slam your car as low as possible, not make it practical, or handle worth a ****, get bad tire life, etc, then you do not need a camber kit.
SO i guess if yes, you are a douche bag that just want to slam your car as low as possible, not make it practical, or handle worth a ****, get bad tire life, etc, then you do not need a camber kit.
#53
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Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
also true...as well the design of the tire..the aspect ratio..the toe angle will also deform the contact patch...there are many factors to this but like tunernoob said. psi and sprung weight will be the main factors to contact patch once all the "alignment" specs are set(obviously at a static setting).
#54
Honda-Tech Member
Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
The original post is essentially correct, and makes no attempt to post anything other than helpful content. That is what was stickied.
The misinformation comes from posts such as:
Contact patch size is entirely determined by the pressure in the tire and the weight on that corner of the vehicle. No alignment setting can change the contact patch size.
The worse "should go" makes it less incorrect, since "should" is an opinion.
However, the mention to stick to the right offset is valid and correct.
I agree with this, in theory. The shorter and stiffer the sidewall, the less of a role the air pressure plays in determining the deformation of the tire against the road.
And we have supporting evidence of the theory:
But then we see contradictory evidence:
Which matches my experience with both 205/45-16s and 205/40-16s (wrong size for the car) on a DC2. Perfectly even tire wear, with -4* of front camber, but I run 0* toe front and back.
Is Patrick's theory (which I agree with in principle) correct? Or is blaze the chemi's and my actual experience correct, or anomalies? This one I can't answer. My personal experience is too small of a sample size to make any meaningful conclusions from.
Something to keep in mind. The OEM alignment settings for most of our FWD Hondas were not created with even tire wear as the priority. Rear toe is specified as toe in, which causes uneven wear, but also causes high speed stability, understeer, and helps provide braking stability. Those 3 things, by far, outweigh even tire wear, from a manufacturers standpoint.
Something else to keep in mind. No alignment can save your tires from poor driving habits. Burn outs, tire lockup under braking, sliding the tail through a turn, turning sharper than the point of understeer starting, all of these things ruin tires by wearing them in ways not seen by a normal driver.
This thread has some useful gems of information hidden in it, but it is still overpowered by a massive amount of absurd crap.
Have I helped it any, or just contributed to the mess?
The misinformation comes from posts such as:
Contact patch size is entirely determined by the pressure in the tire and the weight on that corner of the vehicle. No alignment setting can change the contact patch size.
The worse "should go" makes it less incorrect, since "should" is an opinion.
However, the mention to stick to the right offset is valid and correct.
I agree with this, in theory. The shorter and stiffer the sidewall, the less of a role the air pressure plays in determining the deformation of the tire against the road.
And we have supporting evidence of the theory:
But then we see contradictory evidence:
Which matches my experience with both 205/45-16s and 205/40-16s (wrong size for the car) on a DC2. Perfectly even tire wear, with -4* of front camber, but I run 0* toe front and back.
Is Patrick's theory (which I agree with in principle) correct? Or is blaze the chemi's and my actual experience correct, or anomalies? This one I can't answer. My personal experience is too small of a sample size to make any meaningful conclusions from.
Something to keep in mind. The OEM alignment settings for most of our FWD Hondas were not created with even tire wear as the priority. Rear toe is specified as toe in, which causes uneven wear, but also causes high speed stability, understeer, and helps provide braking stability. Those 3 things, by far, outweigh even tire wear, from a manufacturers standpoint.
Something else to keep in mind. No alignment can save your tires from poor driving habits. Burn outs, tire lockup under braking, sliding the tail through a turn, turning sharper than the point of understeer starting, all of these things ruin tires by wearing them in ways not seen by a normal driver.
This thread has some useful gems of information hidden in it, but it is still overpowered by a massive amount of absurd crap.
Have I helped it any, or just contributed to the mess?
#55
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Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
Incorrect. This is pure physics, and not debatable.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question506.htm
The contact patch size is entirely weight / pressure. Nothing else factors in.
Then how do I get perfectly even wear with -4* of front camber on my DC2? If the entire tread surface wasn't touching, I couldn't get even wear.
Now, running a stupidly stretched tire on an overly wide wheel, yeah, the rules change a bit. Doing so is unsafe, and not worth discussing.
Reducing pressure is one of the only 2 ways to increase contact patch size. The other is to add weight.
a) Yes, too low of a pressure can cause crappy handling. Mostly responsiveness is affected.
b) True.
c) Probably, but not always. Under inflation usually results in accelerated wear of both shoulder areas, which is how my original tires wore on my DC2 even when set to the recommended pressure.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question506.htm
Originally Posted by How Stuff Works
For your 2-ton (4,000 lb) car, you will find that the area of the contact patch is about equal to the weight of the car divided by the tire pressure. In this case 4,000 pounds divided by 30 pounds per square inch equals 133 square inches. That may seem like a lot, but your car's tires are probably about 7 inches wide. That means that the contact patch for each tire will be about 4.75 inches long.
Now, running a stupidly stretched tire on an overly wide wheel, yeah, the rules change a bit. Doing so is unsafe, and not worth discussing.
a) Yes, too low of a pressure can cause crappy handling. Mostly responsiveness is affected.
b) True.
c) Probably, but not always. Under inflation usually results in accelerated wear of both shoulder areas, which is how my original tires wore on my DC2 even when set to the recommended pressure.
#56
Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
so from the OP, i should get camber kits for the rear and not worry about the front as long as i get the toe properly adjusted right? planning on dropping my civic so that's why i wanted to confirm.
#57
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Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
To add to this discussion, camber affects how agressively a simple toe misalignment will eat away at your tires. At near zero, the tire is dragged with relatively even pressure on the outer/inner edges. If the Toe is zero'd out, the primary factor contributing to wear in a straight line is rolling friction. Rolling friction does not eat tires nearly as fast as static friction, which is what occurs during a Toe misalignment. Think of Toe Wear similar to pointing your front tires towards one another and dragging them along the road. So if you have shocks with insufficient dampening ability (i.e. slammed), you will be prone to these types of misalignments more often. Lowered cars will often require more frequent alignments depending on health of the shocks and amount of suspensions travel. In my case, I would align my car every 4-6K.
It's common for many people to claim that a camber kit helped their issue. And they are right to a point. What they don't realize is that unless they keep Toe at/near zero, their tires will continue to wear prematurely, despite wearing evenly. The problem is that many people do not know how to inspect for irregular wear. What might "look" like an evenly wearing tire is actually a misaligned condition producing increased amounts of heat along the entire surface of the tire. Add +/- camber, and the heat is magnified exponentially to one side.
So in cases where you have excessive Toe-In, the front tires will have a saw-tooth wear pattern pointing towards the inner edge of the tire. Running your fingers along the tread should yield a sharp inner edge, and a relatively smooth outer edge. Toe-Out will produce exactly the opposite effect. Hope that helps.
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Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
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Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
And here are some pictures to help:
1. Notice how the outer edge of the tread curves up before meeting the sidewall. It's hard to see in this pic, but the inside edge doesn't start to curve until the sidewall meets the tread edge.
2. Notice how there's hardly any evidence of wear on the last few inches of the outer tread. It's apparent on the lower left edge of the tire.
3. Notice how the inner tread is worn all the way to the edge. The angle of camber combined with a stiffer sidewall puts greater force on the inside edge. It's not much, but it's enough to cause what you see here. Funny thing is that it's not a problem unless your Toe falls out of alignment. So what you are seeing is the effect of Toe misalignment (combined with the camber angle) that occurs over the course of 6K of daily driving (potholes, large bumps, etc). It's only a fraction of a degree, but it's enough to progressively erode the tire's ability to dissipate heat along the inside edge. Taller and/or softer tires have more forgiveness with the angle/breadth of the contact patch.
1. Notice how the outer edge of the tread curves up before meeting the sidewall. It's hard to see in this pic, but the inside edge doesn't start to curve until the sidewall meets the tread edge.
2. Notice how there's hardly any evidence of wear on the last few inches of the outer tread. It's apparent on the lower left edge of the tire.
3. Notice how the inner tread is worn all the way to the edge. The angle of camber combined with a stiffer sidewall puts greater force on the inside edge. It's not much, but it's enough to cause what you see here. Funny thing is that it's not a problem unless your Toe falls out of alignment. So what you are seeing is the effect of Toe misalignment (combined with the camber angle) that occurs over the course of 6K of daily driving (potholes, large bumps, etc). It's only a fraction of a degree, but it's enough to progressively erode the tire's ability to dissipate heat along the inside edge. Taller and/or softer tires have more forgiveness with the angle/breadth of the contact patch.
#61
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Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
well i guess i can take my camber kit off now! ive wanted to for a while cuz i love the look of negative camber. i was just scared to eat up my tires. but now ive seen the light! lol im slammed 3.75 inches on my DA though. that wont be too much camber will it?
#62
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Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
ok not trying to get flamed by any means... (prolly gonna happen anyways...) but my civic only sits about 2.5" off the ground. (i bought it like that from my brother cause i liked it... keep in mind i was 16) and my 205/40 17s get chewed up ALL the way to the belt on the inside... and it usually takes it around 6 months to do it but i noticed that after a month or two of driving i have no rain grip whatsoever. my front wheels are off 1.25 and my back are 1.5. this car has been like this for all of 3 years now no problem driving no kits besides the rain sliding XD (inportant i know)
now as for whether or not you need kits i wont say. i dont like inserting opinions into threads other than my own... it tends to blow up in your face. but i will prolly never put kits on my car.
for you... totally your call if you are truly that worried with the wear. me, i roll low and fast all the time so i am pretty sure that doesnt help my tires. and they last a good while. so do what you will with your car. hence why its "YOUR" car.
now as for whether or not you need kits i wont say. i dont like inserting opinions into threads other than my own... it tends to blow up in your face. but i will prolly never put kits on my car.
for you... totally your call if you are truly that worried with the wear. me, i roll low and fast all the time so i am pretty sure that doesnt help my tires. and they last a good while. so do what you will with your car. hence why its "YOUR" car.
#63
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Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
good info, i was going to pick a camber kit up for my daily (is300) because of tire wear, but i'll just have them do a full alignment and adjust the toe. Thanks.
#64
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Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
ok not trying to get flamed by any means... (prolly gonna happen anyways...) but my civic only sits about 2.5" off the ground. (i bought it like that from my brother cause i liked it... keep in mind i was 16) and my 205/40 17s get chewed up ALL the way to the belt on the inside... and it usually takes it around 6 months to do it but i noticed that after a month or two of driving i have no rain grip whatsoever. my front wheels are off 1.25 and my back are 1.5. this car has been like this for all of 3 years now no problem driving no kits besides the rain sliding XD (inportant i know)
now as for whether or not you need kits i wont say. i dont like inserting opinions into threads other than my own... it tends to blow up in your face. but i will prolly never put kits on my car.
for you... totally your call if you are truly that worried with the wear. me, i roll low and fast all the time so i am pretty sure that doesnt help my tires. and they last a good while. so do what you will with your car. hence why its "YOUR" car.
now as for whether or not you need kits i wont say. i dont like inserting opinions into threads other than my own... it tends to blow up in your face. but i will prolly never put kits on my car.
for you... totally your call if you are truly that worried with the wear. me, i roll low and fast all the time so i am pretty sure that doesnt help my tires. and they last a good while. so do what you will with your car. hence why its "YOUR" car.
#65
Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
#67
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Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
As low as is reasonable to daily drive.
Its more of a cosmetic issue, than a safety/tire wear/handling issue, at any reasonable ride height.
And if you intend to dump the car 4", then you might even enjoy how the massive camber allows lower offset wheels to be fitted in the back (more lip). (I think both are retarded, but many seem to enjoy that look.)
Its more of a cosmetic issue, than a safety/tire wear/handling issue, at any reasonable ride height.
And if you intend to dump the car 4", then you might even enjoy how the massive camber allows lower offset wheels to be fitted in the back (more lip). (I think both are retarded, but many seem to enjoy that look.)
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#69
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Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
92-95 Honda Civic specs:
Front -> camber: -1.0 .. 1.0 deg; toe: -0.12 .. 0.12 deg
Rear -> camber: -1.3 .. 0.7 deg; toe: 0.04 .. 0.16 deg
source: Dekalb Tire Co., GA
in other words, for maximum combination of tire life and stability: stay towards the zero camber and toe up front, and towards slightly negative camber and toe-in at the rear (for stability when turning, and keeping the back in line when going straight)
IMO, my front camber kit (skunk2 pro) saves my front tires (205/45/R16) for much longer (had wear problems even after alignment), as the car has Eibach Sportline + Koni Yellow suspension. The rear camber is also within specs.
Front -> camber: -1.0 .. 1.0 deg; toe: -0.12 .. 0.12 deg
Rear -> camber: -1.3 .. 0.7 deg; toe: 0.04 .. 0.16 deg
source: Dekalb Tire Co., GA
in other words, for maximum combination of tire life and stability: stay towards the zero camber and toe up front, and towards slightly negative camber and toe-in at the rear (for stability when turning, and keeping the back in line when going straight)
IMO, my front camber kit (skunk2 pro) saves my front tires (205/45/R16) for much longer (had wear problems even after alignment), as the car has Eibach Sportline + Koni Yellow suspension. The rear camber is also within specs.
Last edited by miro_gt; 09-18-2009 at 07:05 PM.
#72
Honda-Tech Member
Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
And here are some pictures to help:
1. Notice how the outer edge of the tread curves up before meeting the sidewall. It's hard to see in this pic, but the inside edge doesn't start to curve until the sidewall meets the tread edge.
2. Notice how there's hardly any evidence of wear on the last few inches of the outer tread. It's apparent on the lower left edge of the tire.
3. Notice how the inner tread is worn all the way to the edge. The angle of camber combined with a stiffer sidewall puts greater force on the inside edge. It's not much, but it's enough to cause what you see here. Funny thing is that it's not a problem unless your Toe falls out of alignment. So what you are seeing is the effect of Toe misalignment (combined with the camber angle) that occurs over the course of 6K of daily driving (potholes, large bumps, etc). It's only a fraction of a degree, but it's enough to progressively erode the tire's ability to dissipate heat along the inside edge. Taller and/or softer tires have more forgiveness with the angle/breadth of the contact patch.
1. Notice how the outer edge of the tread curves up before meeting the sidewall. It's hard to see in this pic, but the inside edge doesn't start to curve until the sidewall meets the tread edge.
2. Notice how there's hardly any evidence of wear on the last few inches of the outer tread. It's apparent on the lower left edge of the tire.
3. Notice how the inner tread is worn all the way to the edge. The angle of camber combined with a stiffer sidewall puts greater force on the inside edge. It's not much, but it's enough to cause what you see here. Funny thing is that it's not a problem unless your Toe falls out of alignment. So what you are seeing is the effect of Toe misalignment (combined with the camber angle) that occurs over the course of 6K of daily driving (potholes, large bumps, etc). It's only a fraction of a degree, but it's enough to progressively erode the tire's ability to dissipate heat along the inside edge. Taller and/or softer tires have more forgiveness with the angle/breadth of the contact patch.
gawd i hate that POS tire
are those koni yellows i see in the shock fork? please tell me you didn't buy a decent setup and kill the handling with crap tires
#73
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Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!
damn good thing i read this today, cuz funny thing is i was gonnabuy a camber kit tomorrow!! haha i just save a ton of money on my car by switching to hondatech haha
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