Suspension & Brakes Theory, alignment, spring rates....

No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

 
Old 09-01-2009, 03:52 PM
  #51  
Honda-Tech Member
 
TunerN00b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA, United States
Posts: 7,539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Garage 808 Hatch View Post
This thread is full of so much bullshit, I think im at the rodeo. I cant believe horrible missinformation like this gets stickied
The original post is essentially correct, and makes no attempt to post anything other than helpful content. That is what was stickied.

The misinformation comes from posts such as:

Originally Posted by Garage 808 Hatch View Post
You say it may not be necessary, but with 225's up front, my car drove like complete ***. after 3 alignments. put in a camber kit, aligned it to the same toe specs as before, drives 100x better. excessive camber will cause the tires to "grab" rutts, bumps, etc making the car feel "darty" and also gives you less of a contact patch with the road in straight line driving. It WILL still cause uneven tread wear. regardless of what you say
Contact patch size is entirely determined by the pressure in the tire and the weight on that corner of the vehicle. No alignment setting can change the contact patch size.

Originally Posted by kristo View Post
195 is the widest you should go on a Civic <01. It is plenty for grip and if you go wider you get handling problems.

These cars were not designed for wider tires. Also stick to the right offset.
The worse "should go" makes it less incorrect, since "should" is an opinion.

However, the mention to stick to the right offset is valid and correct.

Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
more info added above - shorter sidewall tires will experience more inner shoulder wear with negative camber, even with proper alignment.
I agree with this, in theory. The shorter and stiffer the sidewall, the less of a role the air pressure plays in determining the deformation of the tire against the road.

And we have supporting evidence of the theory:

Originally Posted by Seikensetzu View Post
super slammed cars dont run camber kits!!! i've seen the damage the ck does when slammed =S learned from experience....also i've noticed than 40 series tires do wear on the inside even if its properly aligned, gotta try the 50's see if they last me longer or wear evenly this time around.
But then we see contradictory evidence:

Originally Posted by blaze the chemi View Post
I have never had any excessive tire wear and my last set of wheel/tires I had were 205/40/17. The inner looks about the same as the outside after 20K miles and 3 years of autox.
Which matches my experience with both 205/45-16s and 205/40-16s (wrong size for the car) on a DC2. Perfectly even tire wear, with -4* of front camber, but I run 0* toe front and back.

Is Patrick's theory (which I agree with in principle) correct? Or is blaze the chemi's and my actual experience correct, or anomalies? This one I can't answer. My personal experience is too small of a sample size to make any meaningful conclusions from.

Something to keep in mind. The OEM alignment settings for most of our FWD Hondas were not created with even tire wear as the priority. Rear toe is specified as toe in, which causes uneven wear, but also causes high speed stability, understeer, and helps provide braking stability. Those 3 things, by far, outweigh even tire wear, from a manufacturers standpoint.

Something else to keep in mind. No alignment can save your tires from poor driving habits. Burn outs, tire lockup under braking, sliding the tail through a turn, turning sharper than the point of understeer starting, all of these things ruin tires by wearing them in ways not seen by a normal driver.

This thread has some useful gems of information hidden in it, but it is still overpowered by a massive amount of absurd crap.

Have I helped it any, or just contributed to the mess?
TunerN00b is offline  
Old 09-01-2009, 09:29 PM
  #52  
Honda-Tech Member
 
Garage 808 Hatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: CRESWELL, Oregon, 97426
Posts: 5,433
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

Tire contact patch is also determined by camber. If you have -4* of camber the tire is not in contact with the road the full width of the tire. if you air it down enough to achieve full contact, you will have (a) crappy handling from too low of tire pressures (b) lessened gas mileage from improperly inflated tires (c) shitty tire wear

SO i guess if yes, you are a douche bag that just want to slam your car as low as possible, not make it practical, or handle worth a ****, get bad tire life, etc, then you do not need a camber kit.
Garage 808 Hatch is offline  
Old 09-01-2009, 09:48 PM
  #53  
Spongebrad Squarepants
iTrader: (2)
 
Egezzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: #BrapCity
Posts: 10,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

also true...as well the design of the tire..the aspect ratio..the toe angle will also deform the contact patch...there are many factors to this but like tunernoob said. psi and sprung weight will be the main factors to contact patch once all the "alignment" specs are set(obviously at a static setting).
Egezzy is offline  
Old 09-01-2009, 10:16 PM
  #54  
Honda-Tech Member
 
racebum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oregon
Posts: 9,865
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by TunerN00b View Post
The original post is essentially correct, and makes no attempt to post anything other than helpful content. That is what was stickied.

The misinformation comes from posts such as:



Contact patch size is entirely determined by the pressure in the tire and the weight on that corner of the vehicle. No alignment setting can change the contact patch size.



The worse "should go" makes it less incorrect, since "should" is an opinion.

However, the mention to stick to the right offset is valid and correct.



I agree with this, in theory. The shorter and stiffer the sidewall, the less of a role the air pressure plays in determining the deformation of the tire against the road.

And we have supporting evidence of the theory:



But then we see contradictory evidence:



Which matches my experience with both 205/45-16s and 205/40-16s (wrong size for the car) on a DC2. Perfectly even tire wear, with -4* of front camber, but I run 0* toe front and back.

Is Patrick's theory (which I agree with in principle) correct? Or is blaze the chemi's and my actual experience correct, or anomalies? This one I can't answer. My personal experience is too small of a sample size to make any meaningful conclusions from.

Something to keep in mind. The OEM alignment settings for most of our FWD Hondas were not created with even tire wear as the priority. Rear toe is specified as toe in, which causes uneven wear, but also causes high speed stability, understeer, and helps provide braking stability. Those 3 things, by far, outweigh even tire wear, from a manufacturers standpoint.

Something else to keep in mind. No alignment can save your tires from poor driving habits. Burn outs, tire lockup under braking, sliding the tail through a turn, turning sharper than the point of understeer starting, all of these things ruin tires by wearing them in ways not seen by a normal driver.

This thread has some useful gems of information hidden in it, but it is still overpowered by a massive amount of absurd crap.

Have I helped it any, or just contributed to the mess?
helped
racebum is offline  
Old 09-02-2009, 12:30 PM
  #55  
Honda-Tech Member
 
TunerN00b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA, United States
Posts: 7,539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Garage 808 Hatch View Post
Tire contact patch is also determined by camber.
Incorrect. This is pure physics, and not debatable.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question506.htm

Originally Posted by How Stuff Works
For your 2-ton (4,000 lb) car, you will find that the area of the contact patch is about equal to the weight of the car divided by the tire pressure. In this case 4,000 pounds divided by 30 pounds per square inch equals 133 square inches. That may seem like a lot, but your car's tires are probably about 7 inches wide. That means that the contact patch for each tire will be about 4.75 inches long.
The contact patch size is entirely weight / pressure. Nothing else factors in.

Originally Posted by Garage 808 Hatch View Post
If you have -4* of camber the tire is not in contact with the road the full width of the tire.
Then how do I get perfectly even wear with -4* of front camber on my DC2? If the entire tread surface wasn't touching, I couldn't get even wear.

Now, running a stupidly stretched tire on an overly wide wheel, yeah, the rules change a bit. Doing so is unsafe, and not worth discussing.

Originally Posted by Garage 808 Hatch View Post
if you air it down enough to achieve full contact, you will have (a) crappy handling from too low of tire pressures (b) lessened gas mileage from improperly inflated tires (c) shitty tire wear
Reducing pressure is one of the only 2 ways to increase contact patch size. The other is to add weight.

a) Yes, too low of a pressure can cause crappy handling. Mostly responsiveness is affected.
b) True.
c) Probably, but not always. Under inflation usually results in accelerated wear of both shoulder areas, which is how my original tires wore on my DC2 even when set to the recommended pressure.
TunerN00b is offline  
Old 09-04-2009, 12:01 AM
  #56  
Honda-Tech Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

so from the OP, i should get camber kits for the rear and not worry about the front as long as i get the toe properly adjusted right? planning on dropping my civic so that's why i wanted to confirm.
559ekcoupe is offline  
Old 09-04-2009, 03:16 PM
  #57  
Honda-Tech Member
 
Design's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The OC
Posts: 619
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by 559ekcoupe View Post
so from the OP, i should get camber kits for the rear and not worry about the front as long as i get the toe properly adjusted right? planning on dropping my civic so that's why i wanted to confirm.
Probably not, but it will depend on your driving environment, quality of the suspension, and tire size. I ran my EM1 for 180K on 205/40/17's on Koni Yellows with minor wear along the inner surface (I also ran a rear camber kit only, at -1.5*). I believe TunerNoob mentioned that it is harder for lower profile tires to form a consistent contact patch along the entire surface of the tread (unless you're running a very low PSI).

To add to this discussion, camber affects how agressively a simple toe misalignment will eat away at your tires. At near zero, the tire is dragged with relatively even pressure on the outer/inner edges. If the Toe is zero'd out, the primary factor contributing to wear in a straight line is rolling friction. Rolling friction does not eat tires nearly as fast as static friction, which is what occurs during a Toe misalignment. Think of Toe Wear similar to pointing your front tires towards one another and dragging them along the road. So if you have shocks with insufficient dampening ability (i.e. slammed), you will be prone to these types of misalignments more often. Lowered cars will often require more frequent alignments depending on health of the shocks and amount of suspensions travel. In my case, I would align my car every 4-6K.

It's common for many people to claim that a camber kit helped their issue. And they are right to a point. What they don't realize is that unless they keep Toe at/near zero, their tires will continue to wear prematurely, despite wearing evenly. The problem is that many people do not know how to inspect for irregular wear. What might "look" like an evenly wearing tire is actually a misaligned condition producing increased amounts of heat along the entire surface of the tire. Add +/- camber, and the heat is magnified exponentially to one side.

So in cases where you have excessive Toe-In, the front tires will have a saw-tooth wear pattern pointing towards the inner edge of the tire. Running your fingers along the tread should yield a sharp inner edge, and a relatively smooth outer edge. Toe-Out will produce exactly the opposite effect. Hope that helps.
Design is offline  
Old 09-04-2009, 03:37 PM
  #58  
Honda-Tech Member
 
Design's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The OC
Posts: 619
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by TunerN00b View Post
The contact patch size is entirely weight / pressure. Nothing else factors in.
In my experience, sidewall height/stiffness on lower profile tires can play a small part. I would agree that it's mostly about weight and tire pressure for 90% of the community.
Design is offline  
Old 09-05-2009, 01:10 AM
  #59  
Honda-Tech Member
 
Design's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The OC
Posts: 619
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

And here are some pictures to help:

1. Notice how the outer edge of the tread curves up before meeting the sidewall. It's hard to see in this pic, but the inside edge doesn't start to curve until the sidewall meets the tread edge.



2. Notice how there's hardly any evidence of wear on the last few inches of the outer tread. It's apparent on the lower left edge of the tire.


3. Notice how the inner tread is worn all the way to the edge. The angle of camber combined with a stiffer sidewall puts greater force on the inside edge. It's not much, but it's enough to cause what you see here. Funny thing is that it's not a problem unless your Toe falls out of alignment. So what you are seeing is the effect of Toe misalignment (combined with the camber angle) that occurs over the course of 6K of daily driving (potholes, large bumps, etc). It's only a fraction of a degree, but it's enough to progressively erode the tire's ability to dissipate heat along the inside edge. Taller and/or softer tires have more forgiveness with the angle/breadth of the contact patch.
Design is offline  
Old 09-10-2009, 06:56 PM
  #60  
Honda-Tech Member
 
NyPosterBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 879
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

WOW what a great writeup.. thanks for the info!
NyPosterBoy is offline  
Old 09-10-2009, 10:25 PM
  #61  
Honda-Tech Member
 
DAtegLs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: montgomery, al, United states
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

well i guess i can take my camber kit off now! ive wanted to for a while cuz i love the look of negative camber. i was just scared to eat up my tires. but now ive seen the light! lol im slammed 3.75 inches on my DA though. that wont be too much camber will it?
DAtegLs is offline  
Old 09-10-2009, 10:41 PM
  #62  
Honda-Tech Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

ok not trying to get flamed by any means... (prolly gonna happen anyways...) but my civic only sits about 2.5" off the ground. (i bought it like that from my brother cause i liked it... keep in mind i was 16) and my 205/40 17s get chewed up ALL the way to the belt on the inside... and it usually takes it around 6 months to do it but i noticed that after a month or two of driving i have no rain grip whatsoever. my front wheels are off 1.25 and my back are 1.5. this car has been like this for all of 3 years now no problem driving no kits besides the rain sliding XD (inportant i know)

now as for whether or not you need kits i wont say. i dont like inserting opinions into threads other than my own... it tends to blow up in your face. but i will prolly never put kits on my car.

for you... totally your call if you are truly that worried with the wear. me, i roll low and fast all the time so i am pretty sure that doesnt help my tires. and they last a good while. so do what you will with your car. hence why its "YOUR" car.
Dragsparks is offline  
Old 09-11-2009, 05:28 AM
  #63  
Honda-Tech Member
 
92 EH2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 3,324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

good info, i was going to pick a camber kit up for my daily (is300) because of tire wear, but i'll just have them do a full alignment and adjust the toe. Thanks.
92 EH2 is offline  
Old 09-11-2009, 08:38 AM
  #64  
Honda-Tech Member
 
Design's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The OC
Posts: 619
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Dragsparks View Post
ok not trying to get flamed by any means... (prolly gonna happen anyways...) but my civic only sits about 2.5" off the ground. (i bought it like that from my brother cause i liked it... keep in mind i was 16) and my 205/40 17s get chewed up ALL the way to the belt on the inside... and it usually takes it around 6 months to do it but i noticed that after a month or two of driving i have no rain grip whatsoever. my front wheels are off 1.25 and my back are 1.5. this car has been like this for all of 3 years now no problem driving no kits besides the rain sliding XD (inportant i know)

now as for whether or not you need kits i wont say. i dont like inserting opinions into threads other than my own... it tends to blow up in your face. but i will prolly never put kits on my car.

for you... totally your call if you are truly that worried with the wear. me, i roll low and fast all the time so i am pretty sure that doesnt help my tires. and they last a good while. so do what you will with your car. hence why its "YOUR" car.
That's a fair assessment. Sounds like the car is virtually riding on the bump stops. So any moderate bump is most likely going to throw your Toe out of alignment. At near-zero camber, a slight misalignment won't kill you. But Toe is much more sensitive at agressive camber angles.
Design is offline  
Old 09-11-2009, 07:14 PM
  #65  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 View Post
One exception: 96-00 Civic rear suspension has a pretty steep camber curve, and could benefit from slightly reducing the negative camber in the rear from what you get from a drop alone.
How low can the car go until this becomes an issue?

ek-me is offline  
Old 09-17-2009, 12:49 AM
  #66  
Junior Member
 
amateur_guy-cb7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: El Paso
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

this was really helpful
thanks
amateur_guy-cb7 is offline  
Old 09-17-2009, 11:29 AM
  #67  
Honda-Tech Member
 
TunerN00b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA, United States
Posts: 7,539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by ek-me View Post
How low can the car go until this becomes an issue?

As low as is reasonable to daily drive.

Its more of a cosmetic issue, than a safety/tire wear/handling issue, at any reasonable ride height.

And if you intend to dump the car 4", then you might even enjoy how the massive camber allows lower offset wheels to be fitted in the back (more lip). (I think both are retarded, but many seem to enjoy that look.)
TunerN00b is offline  
Old 09-17-2009, 01:03 PM
  #68  
Honda-Tech Member
iTrader: (1)
 
DrZFiNeSt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 3,189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

Best sticky ever
DrZFiNeSt is offline  
Old 09-18-2009, 06:58 PM
  #69  
Junior Member
 
miro_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 488
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

92-95 Honda Civic specs:

Front -> camber: -1.0 .. 1.0 deg; toe: -0.12 .. 0.12 deg
Rear -> camber: -1.3 .. 0.7 deg; toe: 0.04 .. 0.16 deg

source: Dekalb Tire Co., GA

in other words, for maximum combination of tire life and stability: stay towards the zero camber and toe up front, and towards slightly negative camber and toe-in at the rear (for stability when turning, and keeping the back in line when going straight)

IMO, my front camber kit (skunk2 pro) saves my front tires (205/45/R16) for much longer (had wear problems even after alignment), as the car has Eibach Sportline + Koni Yellow suspension. The rear camber is also within specs.

Last edited by miro_gt; 09-18-2009 at 07:05 PM.
miro_gt is offline  
Old 09-20-2009, 02:08 AM
  #70  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

great info, i was just thinking of installing my camber kit for my EG i got years back tomorrow. I guess it's time for me to sell it.
NorCal_iLLesT is offline  
Old 09-20-2009, 10:54 PM
  #71  
Honda-Tech Member
 
ELIJAH EG-2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

Good info...how have ya been stranger. Long time no see hu?
ELIJAH EG-2 is offline  
Old 09-20-2009, 11:01 PM
  #72  
Honda-Tech Member
 
racebum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oregon
Posts: 9,865
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Design View Post
And here are some pictures to help:

1. Notice how the outer edge of the tread curves up before meeting the sidewall. It's hard to see in this pic, but the inside edge doesn't start to curve until the sidewall meets the tread edge.



2. Notice how there's hardly any evidence of wear on the last few inches of the outer tread. It's apparent on the lower left edge of the tire.


3. Notice how the inner tread is worn all the way to the edge. The angle of camber combined with a stiffer sidewall puts greater force on the inside edge. It's not much, but it's enough to cause what you see here. Funny thing is that it's not a problem unless your Toe falls out of alignment. So what you are seeing is the effect of Toe misalignment (combined with the camber angle) that occurs over the course of 6K of daily driving (potholes, large bumps, etc). It's only a fraction of a degree, but it's enough to progressively erode the tire's ability to dissipate heat along the inside edge. Taller and/or softer tires have more forgiveness with the angle/breadth of the contact patch.
ahh. pictures of kumho ast's make me cringe

gawd i hate that POS tire

are those koni yellows i see in the shock fork? please tell me you didn't buy a decent setup and kill the handling with crap tires
racebum is offline  
Old 09-21-2009, 12:50 AM
  #73  
Honda-Tech Member
 
RedEgSi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Methuen, Ma, Us
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

damn good thing i read this today, cuz funny thing is i was gonnabuy a camber kit tomorrow!! haha i just save a ton of money on my car by switching to hondatech haha
RedEgSi is offline  
Old 09-23-2009, 08:43 AM
  #74  
Honda-Tech Member
 
delslow!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

hey anyone want to buy a skunk2 camber kit? lol
delslow! is offline  
Old 09-23-2009, 06:37 PM
  #75  
Honda-Tech Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by delslow! View Post
hey anyone want to buy a skunk2 camber kit? lol
hahahahahahahahahahahaha i guess thats just as good of a post as any other ones hahaha kinda a lil misplaced but i suppose its fine XD
Dragsparks is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: No, you DO NOT need camber kits!!!!!!!!


Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: