what did you learn that stuck with you?
04-06-2006, 10:13 AM
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Re: what did you learn that stuck with you? (GarageAlchemist)
It wasn't from my first racing school/class really.. but it was from my first season, which really.. is as much school as anything so here goes.
Let the car do the work.
Don't try to force it, but relax, once you relax a little, you will see that things go more smoothly, and faster.
I thought I was taking a corner as fast as I could, car on the perfect line, perfect steady-state cornering, when a car nearly identical to mine blew around me on the outside, car sliding a bit, front wheels steering away, I asked the driver (who happend to be a long time chief instructor for Skip Barber) later "WTF!?!" and he explained the above to me, how you had to relax to get the car working to get the most out of it, and that something that might not feel smooth to you at first, may still be smooth.
This isn't a suggestion to throw the car into every corner with opposite-lock, but it is a note that there is a ballance between underdriving and overdriving a car, and a car at full speed really is right on the edge.
Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com
Let the car do the work.
Don't try to force it, but relax, once you relax a little, you will see that things go more smoothly, and faster.
I thought I was taking a corner as fast as I could, car on the perfect line, perfect steady-state cornering, when a car nearly identical to mine blew around me on the outside, car sliding a bit, front wheels steering away, I asked the driver (who happend to be a long time chief instructor for Skip Barber) later "WTF!?!" and he explained the above to me, how you had to relax to get the car working to get the most out of it, and that something that might not feel smooth to you at first, may still be smooth.
This isn't a suggestion to throw the car into every corner with opposite-lock, but it is a note that there is a ballance between underdriving and overdriving a car, and a car at full speed really is right on the edge.
Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com
04-06-2006, 10:48 AM
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Re: what did you learn that stuck with you? (racerjon1)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racerjon1 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It wasn't from my first racing school/class really.. but it was from my first season, which really.. is as much school as anything so here goes.
Let the car do the work.
Don't try to force it, but relax, once you relax a little, you will see that things go more smoothly, and faster.
I thought I was taking a corner as fast as I could, car on the perfect line, perfect steady-state cornering, when a car nearly identical to mine blew around me on the outside, car sliding a bit, front wheels steering away, I asked the driver (who happend to be a long time chief instructor for Skip Barber) later "WTF!?!" and he explained the above to me, how you had to relax to get the car working to get the most out of it, and that something that might not feel smooth to you at first, may still be smooth.
This isn't a suggestion to throw the car into every corner with opposite-lock, but it is a note that there is a ballance between underdriving and overdriving a car, and a car at full speed really is right on the edge.
Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's one thing I've always noticed...the more relaxed I am....the faster my runs turn out..
Let the car do the work.
Don't try to force it, but relax, once you relax a little, you will see that things go more smoothly, and faster.
I thought I was taking a corner as fast as I could, car on the perfect line, perfect steady-state cornering, when a car nearly identical to mine blew around me on the outside, car sliding a bit, front wheels steering away, I asked the driver (who happend to be a long time chief instructor for Skip Barber) later "WTF!?!" and he explained the above to me, how you had to relax to get the car working to get the most out of it, and that something that might not feel smooth to you at first, may still be smooth.
This isn't a suggestion to throw the car into every corner with opposite-lock, but it is a note that there is a ballance between underdriving and overdriving a car, and a car at full speed really is right on the edge.
Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's one thing I've always noticed...the more relaxed I am....the faster my runs turn out..
04-06-2006, 12:11 PM
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Re: (SJR)
The first school attended (Roebling Road) was a battle of attrition. It rained more then half of the time, and cars were eating grass and walls left and right.
The phrase that stuck with me was, "you must first finish to finish first"... the other phrase that was stuck on my borrowed IT-7 was "when in doubt GAS IT".
When I attended the WDCR School last March, the thing that stuck with me most was how incredibly nice all the folks were and how much help was offered both in driving and maintaining the car.
Still big thanks to the poster above /\
and Gregg G.
Two stories...
http://www.nerdsracing.com/NN_...5.htm
http://www.nerdsracing.com/NN_...5.htm
The phrase that stuck with me was, "you must first finish to finish first"... the other phrase that was stuck on my borrowed IT-7 was "when in doubt GAS IT".
When I attended the WDCR School last March, the thing that stuck with me most was how incredibly nice all the folks were and how much help was offered both in driving and maintaining the car.
Still big thanks to the poster above /\
and Gregg G.
Two stories...
http://www.nerdsracing.com/NN_...5.htm
http://www.nerdsracing.com/NN_...5.htm
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04-06-2006, 01:15 PM
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Re: (speedracer33)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oh, and wash your hands after you go to the bathroom - that's important.</TD></TR></TABLE>
At a racetrack.. don't you mean BEFORE you go to the bathroom..
Maybe one day I will be able to afford a mechanic and not have to work on my own stuff..
Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com
At a racetrack.. don't you mean BEFORE you go to the bathroom..
Maybe one day I will be able to afford a mechanic and not have to work on my own stuff..
Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com
04-06-2006, 02:44 PM
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Re: what did you learn that stuck with you? (GarageAlchemist)
When I went to Bondurant school the 3 biggest things that stuck with me are:
1. I thought I was looking far enough ahead before
2. I thought I knew how to Heel-Toe before
3. Look where you want the car to go and it'll go there.
1. I thought I was looking far enough ahead before
2. I thought I knew how to Heel-Toe before
3. Look where you want the car to go and it'll go there.
04-07-2006, 01:43 PM
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Re: what did you learn that stuck with you? (nonsense)
My first event was also at Roebling and it rained.....this was such an eye opening experience since I thought that I knew how to drive well, but I was so wrong. Then Chad drove my car for a session in the rain and I was completely amazed at how well he could control the car as we were sliding along, how could this goofy *** dude drive so well. Needless to say I was a bit discouraged since I couldn't replicate what Chad was doing once i got back in the drivers seat and got coined the nickname "Spinderella" by Chad. (At least I didn't get owned wearing an overly small Holister shirt biotch!)
But, even though I couldn't control the car exactly how I wanted, I still managed to not crash my car and/or kill myself or anyone else. Flags, mirrors, gauges. Chad preached (read: screamed) this every session and now, even when there is nobody in the car with me, I am still calling out the flags. Be safe first, your car can be replaced but you can't, and that is something I think about everytime I am locking my seatbelt into place.
But with that said, mostly all I can remember is Chad screaming "FULL THROTTLE" and "DON'T FOLLOW HIS LINE!"
But, even though I couldn't control the car exactly how I wanted, I still managed to not crash my car and/or kill myself or anyone else. Flags, mirrors, gauges. Chad preached (read: screamed) this every session and now, even when there is nobody in the car with me, I am still calling out the flags. Be safe first, your car can be replaced but you can't, and that is something I think about everytime I am locking my seatbelt into place.
But with that said, mostly all I can remember is Chad screaming "FULL THROTTLE" and "DON'T FOLLOW HIS LINE!"
04-07-2006, 08:19 PM
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Re: what did you learn that stuck with you? (GarageAlchemist)
I remember being told that if you get off track don't jerk the wheel to get back on the track. Steer straight, slow down and then get back on track. This point was made clear to me my first year when at the old Las Vegas road course a guy right in front of me went off track to my left and I said out loud to myself "DON'T JERK THE WHEEL". Well, he did and his left front dug in and he literally shot across the track in front of me and off the other side. Again I said out loud to myself "DON'T JERK THE WHEEL". He did it again and all I could see out of the corner of my eye was a cloud of dust as he rolled it over and over again. I wish I had a camera in my car with a wide angle lens and a microphone. I will never forget it.
04-08-2006, 08:14 AM
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Re: (speedracer33)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oh, and wash your hands after you go to the bathroom - that's important.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Unless you're in the Summit Point Main Infield. In that case, full HAZMAT suit is recommended, and watch out for wolf spiders and nesting bats. :/
"Look up" is something that I learned in the classroom, but it was finally hammered home by an instructor who decided to watch me instead of the track during a BSR/FATT session.
He basically said he kept watching my face and he felt the line was perfect, but he knew I'd drop a full two seconds if I looked up a little more instead of concentrating on the line...and it worked.
I think the classroom is great for beginning groups, and great for a collaborative decision over what a more advanced person might be doing right or wrong...but the heart of the programme is the characters in the right seats.
Unless you're in the Summit Point Main Infield. In that case, full HAZMAT suit is recommended, and watch out for wolf spiders and nesting bats. :/
"Look up" is something that I learned in the classroom, but it was finally hammered home by an instructor who decided to watch me instead of the track during a BSR/FATT session.
He basically said he kept watching my face and he felt the line was perfect, but he knew I'd drop a full two seconds if I looked up a little more instead of concentrating on the line...and it worked.
I think the classroom is great for beginning groups, and great for a collaborative decision over what a more advanced person might be doing right or wrong...but the heart of the programme is the characters in the right seats.
04-08-2006, 09:27 AM
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Re: what did you learn that stuck with you? (GarageAlchemist)
The most important thing I learned in 10+ years of DE's, Trach Days, and racing and racing karts as a kid was the following:
JUST BECAUSE IT WORKS FOR EVERYBODY ELSE DOESN'T MEAN IT'S THE ONLY WAY !!
Case in point is the oft heard "look where you want to go" phrase taught at all schools and race tracks. Never worked for me one bit. I thought I was just too stuborn to change what I thought was a bad habbit but no matter how hard I tried I never look past my first point of referrence AND IT'S USUALLY THE WRONG REFERENCE!
The first thing you are taught when approaching a turn is to pick the following:
1) Braking point
2) Turn in point
3) Apex
4) Track out
When I am taking turn 10 at Summit (or just about any corner) all I focus on is the apex. Until I hit the apex, Jessica Simpson could be standing buck naked at track out and I'd never see her. Once past the apex I focus on the next location (track out).
I used to annoy the instructors at BMWCCA schools when we did skidpad sessions because I was looking down at the pavement or slightly higher. They kept telling me pick a reference point like a tree or something out the windshield so I could judge when the car was sliding or oversteering. I didn't need to do it, I could sense the car oversteering through my seat.
The last thing I do completely wrong is braking and turn in. Your supposed to pick a reference point on the pavement or nearby. I couldn't tell you what my reference point is because I am too busy looking at the apex while braking and turning in. People ask me "where's your braking point, where do you turn in?"
I have no clue what to tell them. I know when it's time to brake and when to turn in but I am not looking at anything but the apex.
Those three habbits go against all conventional teachings but it works. One would think that using the above technique would lead to very inconsistent lap times but look at any HC time sheet with individual lap times and I can get my open laps down to one ot two tenths of a second. When testing a friend's Radical SR# last year I did seven consecutive laps at Summit, all within 2/10ths of second.
A few years ago some organization inthe UK was doing a road car study for British drivers. They were trying to determine what ordinary driver's were looking at when they were driving on public roads. The idea was to teach people better driving habbits. They held a series of road tests in a parking lot with cones and hooked up sensors to each participant to monitor brain activity and record people's line of vision. One particpant was a racer, Thomas Scheckter (F1, CART, IRL).
He admitted in the interview that when in a race car he focused entirely on the apex, at the expense of everything else (turn in point, braking point, track out ....). His thinking was completely against what was attempting to be taught.
Bottom Line: Do what works for you
It's entirely possible if I took the time to really change my driving style that I might pick up that tenth or two that is missing but in the end I am comfortable with my driving style and I an never going to be a professional paid racer.
JK
JUST BECAUSE IT WORKS FOR EVERYBODY ELSE DOESN'T MEAN IT'S THE ONLY WAY !!
Case in point is the oft heard "look where you want to go" phrase taught at all schools and race tracks. Never worked for me one bit. I thought I was just too stuborn to change what I thought was a bad habbit but no matter how hard I tried I never look past my first point of referrence AND IT'S USUALLY THE WRONG REFERENCE!
The first thing you are taught when approaching a turn is to pick the following:
1) Braking point
2) Turn in point
3) Apex
4) Track out
When I am taking turn 10 at Summit (or just about any corner) all I focus on is the apex. Until I hit the apex, Jessica Simpson could be standing buck naked at track out and I'd never see her. Once past the apex I focus on the next location (track out).
I used to annoy the instructors at BMWCCA schools when we did skidpad sessions because I was looking down at the pavement or slightly higher. They kept telling me pick a reference point like a tree or something out the windshield so I could judge when the car was sliding or oversteering. I didn't need to do it, I could sense the car oversteering through my seat.
The last thing I do completely wrong is braking and turn in. Your supposed to pick a reference point on the pavement or nearby. I couldn't tell you what my reference point is because I am too busy looking at the apex while braking and turning in. People ask me "where's your braking point, where do you turn in?"
I have no clue what to tell them. I know when it's time to brake and when to turn in but I am not looking at anything but the apex.
Those three habbits go against all conventional teachings but it works. One would think that using the above technique would lead to very inconsistent lap times but look at any HC time sheet with individual lap times and I can get my open laps down to one ot two tenths of a second. When testing a friend's Radical SR# last year I did seven consecutive laps at Summit, all within 2/10ths of second.
A few years ago some organization inthe UK was doing a road car study for British drivers. They were trying to determine what ordinary driver's were looking at when they were driving on public roads. The idea was to teach people better driving habbits. They held a series of road tests in a parking lot with cones and hooked up sensors to each participant to monitor brain activity and record people's line of vision. One particpant was a racer, Thomas Scheckter (F1, CART, IRL).
He admitted in the interview that when in a race car he focused entirely on the apex, at the expense of everything else (turn in point, braking point, track out ....). His thinking was completely against what was attempting to be taught.
Bottom Line: Do what works for you
It's entirely possible if I took the time to really change my driving style that I might pick up that tenth or two that is missing but in the end I am comfortable with my driving style and I an never going to be a professional paid racer.
JK
04-08-2006, 09:32 AM
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Re: what did you learn that stuck with you? (FLATOUTRACING)
The second thing totally unrelated but taught by Bruce McInnes at Skip Barber is the following:
"When you start thinking your on the perfect lap or doing a perfect set of laps and your in that zone and surprising the hell out of how damn good you are.............that's when it's time to back off"
How true this is. My two biggest and costliest wrecks (both in the rain) occured when I was absolutely amazed at how well I and the car were working. I was passing everything in site and the car and I were on another planet for a few laps. In both instances I ended up in the tirebarrier or a wall.
"When you start thinking your on the perfect lap or doing a perfect set of laps and your in that zone and surprising the hell out of how damn good you are.............that's when it's time to back off"
How true this is. My two biggest and costliest wrecks (both in the rain) occured when I was absolutely amazed at how well I and the car were working. I was passing everything in site and the car and I were on another planet for a few laps. In both instances I ended up in the tirebarrier or a wall.
04-08-2006, 01:47 PM
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Re: what did you learn that stuck with you? (FLATOUTRACING)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The last thing I do completely wrong is braking and turn in. Your supposed to pick a reference point on the pavement or nearby. I couldn't tell you what my reference point is because I am too busy looking at the apex while braking and turning in. People ask me "where's your braking point, where do you turn in?"
I have no clue what to tell them. I know when it's time to brake and when to turn in but I am not looking at anything but the apex.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm the same way It works for me Dont think, just drive.
I have no clue what to tell them. I know when it's time to brake and when to turn in but I am not looking at anything but the apex.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm the same way
It works for me Dont think, just drive.
04-08-2006, 03:22 PM
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Re: what did you learn that stuck with you? (.RJ)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm the same way It works for me Dont think, just drive.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I am like this as well, alot of people are not though. I had a hard time teaching people when I first started instructing, as they wanted to know exactly when and where I start to do things, but like flatoutracing said, I just had no idea.
It works for me Dont think, just drive.</TD></TR></TABLE>I am like this as well, alot of people are not though. I had a hard time teaching people when I first started instructing, as they wanted to know exactly when and where I start to do things, but like flatoutracing said, I just had no idea.
04-09-2006, 10:54 PM
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Re: what did you learn that stuck with you? (GarageAlchemist)
Lots of good advice... here's a few important ones too IMO:
GET LOTS OF SLEEP
It sucks being tired as hell on race day.
Or on that same note... PLAN AHEAD. Meaning - don't procrastinate working on your car or what have you until the wee hours the night before you have to leave for the race weekend. Give yourself plenty of time - i generally like to have everything buttoned up at least 1 to 2 days before the departure day. That way I am not frantic and hustling the night before trying to get things done and end up 1) not getting enough sleep and 2) not being 100% confident that everything i just did works 100%. By finishing early, i can test things out on the car, etc etc and not end up testing it during practice sessions or qualifying.
And finally... remember to HAVE FUN!
GET LOTS OF SLEEP
It sucks being tired as hell on race day.
Or on that same note... PLAN AHEAD. Meaning - don't procrastinate working on your car or what have you until the wee hours the night before you have to leave for the race weekend. Give yourself plenty of time - i generally like to have everything buttoned up at least 1 to 2 days before the departure day. That way I am not frantic and hustling the night before trying to get things done and end up 1) not getting enough sleep and 2) not being 100% confident that everything i just did works 100%. By finishing early, i can test things out on the car, etc etc and not end up testing it during practice sessions or qualifying.
And finally... remember to HAVE FUN!
04-10-2006, 12:23 AM
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Re: what did you learn that stuck with you? (FLATOUTRACING)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The second thing totally unrelated but taught by Bruce McInnes at Skip Barber is the following:
"When you start thinking your on the perfect lap or doing a perfect set of laps and your in that zone and surprising the hell out of how damn good you are.............that's when it's time to back off"
How true this is. My two biggest and costliest wrecks (both in the rain) occured when I was absolutely amazed at how well I and the car were working. I was passing everything in site and the car and I were on another planet for a few laps. In both instances I ended up in the tirebarrier or a wall.</TD></TR></TABLE>
thats a very good quote. I'll remember that. Same thing happened to me at Buttonwillow, after a couple of those laps I went off. It wasn't even a bad off, I did everyhting right in going off (straight off, both feet in etc etc) but the car caught fire from the brush. luckily, it didn't do much damage since the fire spread away from the car.
"When you start thinking your on the perfect lap or doing a perfect set of laps and your in that zone and surprising the hell out of how damn good you are.............that's when it's time to back off"
How true this is. My two biggest and costliest wrecks (both in the rain) occured when I was absolutely amazed at how well I and the car were working. I was passing everything in site and the car and I were on another planet for a few laps. In both instances I ended up in the tirebarrier or a wall.</TD></TR></TABLE>
thats a very good quote. I'll remember that. Same thing happened to me at Buttonwillow, after a couple of those laps I went off. It wasn't even a bad off, I did everyhting right in going off (straight off, both feet in etc etc) but the car caught fire from the brush. luckily, it didn't do much damage since the fire spread away from the car.
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