Sterndotstern

Did anyone else have trouble with ride height after installing these Koni's? The shortened shocks are preventing me from even setting my car down -- the upper control arm is at a 35* angle when everything is bolted up AT FULL DROOP. This means as I load the suspension (i.e. set the car down), the UCA moves towards the limit of its range. The ride height is unexpectedly low after installing these shocks.

I've tried moving the lower spring perch up, and was successful in picking up another 3/4" of ride height before raising the perch became impossible. After scratching my head for a while, I figured out that it was PULLING on the shock to raise the ride height. I have 7" springs on GC coilovers, with an adjustable bottom perch. The upper spring perch is stock.

So I put this to CRX Lee and all the other guys with CRXes running these shocks: what do I need to change/replace/re-do to get these shocks working?

--Jon

shakedown94

what spring rate? what ride height set to?

.RJ

I'm still confused on what problem you're having.... dont worry so much about the control arm angles. Can you post a pic of how you have your spring perch/sleeve set up?

Sterndotstern

Will post pics as soon as I get home.

The gist of it is this: the overall top-of-the-shock-shaft to the bottom of the shock is 1-2" shorter with the Koni than with the Tokico's that I'd been running. When you bolt everything back up and set the car down, front ride height is too low to set the car down without the top of the upper ball joint on the UCA hitting metal.

How are other people solving this problem with these shocks? I'm at the limit of raising ride height, and it's not enough.

Mugenlude

Have you trimmed down your GC sleeves in the past? Are the GC sleeves the correct ones for the car, as far as I know they come in different lengths.

Sterndotstern

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shakedown94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what spring rate? what ride height set to?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Spring rate = 450 lb.
Ride Height was about 4.5" at the front tow hooks.

The upper spring perch is stock and not adjustable. The lower perch is on the threaded Ground Control sleeve and is adjustable. I have moved this lower perch as far up as the length of the shock shaft + body will allow. The ride height is still 1-2" too low.

FlyZlow

He's running 450# springs, 7" like he said. The ride adjustment height is set to about 1/2 way up the sleeve. The problem is that it seems like he can't raise the spring perch any higher. The shock length is maxed out. The only thing I could think of was that he had the fork mounted too high on the shock body. Is it supposed to go at the very bottom or should it sit up about an inch above the bottom of the shock body?

Edit: Apparently Jon is a faster typer than me

Sterndotstern

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mugenlude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Have you trimmed down your GC sleeves in the past? Are the GC sleeves the correct ones for the car, as far as I know they come in different lengths.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Unfortunately, it's not the GC sleeve that's the limiting factor -- I've got another 3" of thread to go before the perch reaches the top of the sleeve. The problem is that to take the perch up higher causes the shock to be stretched, i.e. the shaft is being pulled in the droop direction.

shakedown94

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sterndotstern &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Unfortunately, it's not the GC sleeve that's the limiting factor -- I've got another 3" of thread to go before the perch reaches the top of the sleeve. The problem is that to take the perch up higher causes the shock to be stretched, i.e. the shaft is being pulled in the droop direction.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

is the shock at full extension with the weight on the car? or is what you are saying the spring is compressed with the shock extended with the weight off the car?

with my cg top hats and the shock pushed further in the fork, my springs are preloaded with the car on jacks. to adjust the collar, i have to loosen the top shock
nut on top of the hat. but compresses 1.5-2" at the wheels once weight is on the car,even with 8" 650 lbs springs.

Sterndotstern

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shakedown94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> is the shock at full extension with the weight on the car?</TD></TR></TABLE>

The shock and spring are at full extension, with the front end of the car up in the air. I haven't been able to set the car down because the UCA would be touching the top of its travel.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shakedown94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">or is what you are saying the spring is compressed with the shock extended with the weight off the car? </TD></TR></TABLE>

The spring isn't compressed. Would compressing the spring help at all? The trouble I had trying to re-assemble the coil over + shock unit was that no spring compressors available to me (the Sears two-piece kit) would fit in the tiny spaces between the coilover sleeve and the spring, or between the bump stop and the spring...

However, there's a really good race shop in town (upracing.com that helped me get the coil overs apart in the first place. If compressing the spring between the top hat and the lower perch will help, that is something that I will look into. So, will it help?

Thanks,
Jon

shakedown94

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sterndotstern &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The shock and spring are at full extension, with the front end of the car up in the air. I haven't been able to set the car down because the UCA would be touching the top of its travel.

The spring isn't compressed. Would compressing the spring help at all?

Thanks,
Jon</TD></TR></TABLE>

try loosening the shock shaft top nut almost all the way. adjust the collar as needed for correct ride height. snug the top nut down. then drop car on wheels and repeat until the correct ride height is found.

static height and shock extenstion is what you need to pay attention to. the spring being slightly compress with weight off the car is not a issue. if the shock is fully extended, at the low ride height that is a issue. the car will have no downtravel and the shock will be damaged from excessive topout.

my front springs are not loose with shock extended on a jack. but only after the gc top hats and the shock 1/2 futher in the fork
hop that helps or someone corrects me if i'm wrong.

Sterndotstern

Ok, so here's a pic to explain the problem better:


Since I decreased A by going with a shorter shock, my ride height is much lower, causing problems. When I try to compensate by raising the spring perch (decreasing B) I find that I can't move the spring perch higher than shown. Would a GC spanner help to compress the spring? Would that have any effect on ride height?

Any other ideas on how to do this?

Thanks again,
Jon

.RJ

well you should remove the spring perch - although I dont think that will help the problem you're describing. maybe you should check the part #'s on the shocks to make sure you got the right ones?

slammed_93_hatch

ummm DO NOT DRIVE the car with the sleeves installed like that. call up ground control and order some "baby tubes" for koni. That setup will fail.

TeamSlowdotOrg

You're running in to the fun problem of adjusting ride height on a shock with lots of rebound. You just need to move the collar up, and all you need to do that is somebody stepping on the upright or control arm to decompress the suspension a little. I would run 6" springs with those shocks in the future if I were you, luckily I was using 6" springs all around when I put my shortened shocks on my Civic, and I was able to do it all by hand.

Is there a reason you're using the spring perch instead of a Koni-specific GC adapter?

shakedown94

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sterndotstern &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok, so here's a pic to explain the problem better:


Since I decreased A by going with a shorter shock, my ride height is much lower, causing problems. When I try to compensate by raising the spring perch (decreasing B) I find that I can't move the spring perch higher than shown. Would a GC spanner help to compress the spring? Would that have any effect on ride height?

Any other ideas on how to do this?

Thanks again,
Jon</TD></TR></TABLE>

that is why you loosen the top nut on the shock shaft. that will give you x- amount more you can thread the perch up. then, once you tighten the top nut back,that in itself will begin to compress the spring. if that is not enough a spanner might will help. my shocks have 1/2 inch of thread aove the top nut when it is all the way tight
remember having to use a spring compressor on the stock spring and shock?

how much higher ride height do you need?

for ITA min. 4" to rocker panel.

slammed_93_hatch

ooo FYI your the spring perch is on up side down too

CRX Lee

Several things.

1) These are shortened shocks and the droop is shortened as well. Off the car, the shocks are at max extension. On the car, it will not be. You need to raise the perch and add some preload to get the target ride height. You will likely need a spring compressor with the rate you are using and the max length. I can get the max length variance from stock when I am at work tomorrow.

2) As menthioned above, get rid of the chrome stock spring perch and use a threaded sleeve system that is made to sit properly on the circlip in the spring perch groove.

3) As mentioned above, your GC spring perch is upside down. Are you using 2.25 or 2.50 ID springs?

4) Your top cup washer is upside down. The cup lip should face up and facing down is risking bushing bind when the top of the shock moves at any angle.

STS_Underdog

I see what you're saying now. Basically you just need a spanner wrench so you can continue to raise the perch. You'll have to put a lot of muscle into it to compress the spring but just keep raising the collar to the height you want and fix the stuff CRXLee pointed out and you'll be good to go.

Sterndotstern

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamSlowdotOrg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is there a reason you're using the spring perch instead of a Koni-specific GC adapter? </TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ummm DO NOT DRIVE the car with the sleeves installed like that. call up ground control and order some "baby tubes" for koni. That setup will fail.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ooo FYI your the spring perch is on up side down too</TD></TR></TABLE>

Scary, because that's exactly how everything was set up on the old shocks that I pulled off... the setup that I've been racing on all year. I knew when I saw the duct tape wrapped around the old shocks (to create a snug fit to the coil over sleeve) that something might be a little fishy.

I'll be calling GC today to get the proper coil-over mounting hardware. I honestly didn't know any better.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Several things.

1) These are shortened shocks and the droop is shortened as well. Off the car, the shocks are at max extension. On the car, it will not be. You need to raise the perch and add some preload to get the target ride height. You will likely need a spring compressor with the rate you are using and the max length. I can get the max length variance from stock when I am at work tomorrow.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, that is what I understood. What kind of spring compressor did you use when you put yours on? As mentioned above, the Sears one won't do the trick...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
2) As menthioned above, get rid of the chrome stock spring perch and use a threaded sleeve system that is made to sit properly on the circlip in the spring perch groove.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Will do.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
3) As mentioned above, your GC spring perch is upside down. Are you using 2.25 or 2.50 ID springs? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I believe the springs are 2.25, I will check again when I get home. What effect does spring inner diameter have?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
4) Your top cup washer is upside down. The cup lip should face up and facing down is risking bushing bind when the top of the shock moves at any angle.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yet another thing I'll fix. Whew! I very much appreciate the corrections, guys, it's good to know there's so many people who know "the right way to do it" that are available for consultation.

--Jon

JeffS

You guys are getting sidetracked with the springs. It's not complicated.

If the shock is at full extension (which he's claimed it is), and the car is still too low (which I believe he's saying it is), then the shock (A) isn't long enough. Nothing is going to fix that.

WRXRacer111

Hmm, I just installed a set of these on a '91 Civic Si. With the proper Ground Control kit, I didn't have any problem getting an approriately high ride height. The fronts are lightly preloaded, but not much. I used a wrench to spin the collars, and actually lowered the car abit from my original starting point. I put antiseize between the spring and collar so the collar would slide against the spring with less effort.

I can't tell from the picture, do you have the Ground Control poly donut installed into the stock upper spring perch? If not, you should get those to keep the spring centered, and that's probably 1/2" ride height increase right there.

I forget if the front shocks have multiple circlip positions for the lower perch... if so, you need to use the highest position.

JeffS

Measure the length of A and have Koni verify that it is correct.

mos

With konis and 350's in the front of my crx I had to preload the springs to get an acceptable ride height. With 500's I didn't.

Sterndotstern

All the talk about preloading springs gets me wondering: does preloading springs have any negative effect on the shock, since (at least when the wheels are in the air) the shock is what the preload is pushing against?

I read somewhere that both topping out and bottoming out shocks is 'not good.' Can anyone elaborate?