OK! So I want to race in H1..............
10-22-2005, 04:43 AM
#53
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (B18C5 EH)
If you could find one I'd say the 97-01 ITR, the ABS alone is worth it. It's stiffer, has a longer wheelbase, good aero, great brakes, and the cool factor. 
Plus hitting min weight should not be an issue with a H series.
Plus hitting min weight should not be an issue with a H series.
10-22-2005, 06:03 AM
#54
Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (6ghatch)
Here is the thing. He wants a H motor in it... it must weight "X". Some of you guys are telling him to put it in the lightest thing out there... thats not the goal... you want to put the motor in the platform that will come the closest to minimum weight, that handles the swap without compromising the car structure, that has parts available, and handles well.
10-22-2005, 06:48 AM
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (Raceworks)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Raceworks »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've kicked quite a bit of *** with that "girl's car". If I've got to paint mine pink all the Civic guys have to run with a full load of groceries in the back!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nice
C'mon Sam, how about some pics.
That thing has got to be fast.
Nice
C'mon Sam, how about some pics.
That thing has got to be fast.
10-22-2005, 07:56 AM
#56
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (SPiFF)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SPiFF »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">H22 Accord!!!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Very tempting because of the inherent stability of the platform, but you would never be able to get the weight down....never.
And the braking system would be problematic. You'd have to do something about all four corners before you could rely on it.
You might have a harder time finding the suspension you want, too.
I think the Accord makes a good H4 car where its stability overcomes the other weaknesses of the platform, but I don't see it as an H1 contender unless you're willing to drop tonnes of money into it.
Very tempting because of the inherent stability of the platform, but you would never be able to get the weight down....never.
And the braking system would be problematic. You'd have to do something about all four corners before you could rely on it.
You might have a harder time finding the suspension you want, too.
I think the Accord makes a good H4 car where its stability overcomes the other weaknesses of the platform, but I don't see it as an H1 contender unless you're willing to drop tonnes of money into it.
10-22-2005, 07:59 AM
#57
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (Grumpy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Grumpy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What are the reasons not to use a DelSol?</TD></TR></TABLE>
You should talk to Lockwood before you go too far w/one of these.
There can be extreme chassis flex problems, and the car is already surpisingly heavy before you bolster it w/a cage.
And who's going to be driving this? If it's you, I think you'd better spend a couple of hours in one of these things before you decide to condemn yourself to spending sprint sessions under load in them.
You should talk to Lockwood before you go too far w/one of these.
There can be extreme chassis flex problems, and the car is already surpisingly heavy before you bolster it w/a cage.
And who's going to be driving this? If it's you, I think you'd better spend a couple of hours in one of these things before you decide to condemn yourself to spending sprint sessions under load in them.
10-22-2005, 08:21 AM
#58
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (Grumpy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Grumpy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is the best platform to use assuming an H22 motor?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I guess it has to be an H22 or H23 motor because your mechanic knows those motors best? It's true that they are awesome and under-rated generally, but just an FYI that parts can be a problem when you get to H1 shopping.
When Corey wanted cams for his car we had to get somebody who's a fairly big name in JDM to actually promise to buy enough cams that the machine shop in Japan would ramp up to make the cams again.
There were literally NO cams of that profile available when he wanted them.
If there's no way to talk you into B motors or K motors then I think you only have two choices:
(1)Prelude of '93/'94 type (second choice)
(2)Integra of DC2 vintage (first choice)
If you can score a DC2 ITR shell with the chassis and brakes intact, that would be incredible. The DC2 ITR ABS system is a lot better than any you might remember from days of auld lang syne and I think you will really be surprised. There's also a greater chance that you'd be able to race with the OEM ITR size brakes w/out having to spend the money on a big brake kit right away.
Moreover, because of its racing history in the N series and WC, there is no shortage of very well developed and entirely legal suspension systems available for the DC2 ITR. You can basically just ring up Opak or King and order a completely race ready suspension with an already proved history of winning races.
The old Prelude can't be sold short. It is an incredibly stable platform (like the Accord of that era) and it takes a lot to upset it. It's a hell of a lot faster than people might imagine (as Corey's proved a few times).
However, you will have a hard time finding the suspension you want. You basically have only one choice, which is to get the correctly valved and correctly shortened (or correctly extended-hatted) Konis with carefully researched springs.
You are already also probably aware that getting a Prelude's weight down to H1 just isn't going to happen. (But on the other hand there's no chance you'll have to go over the scales three times trying to make weight!!)
Since the Prelude has absolutely no racing history in the N series or any other popular Japanese series, you might also have to pull some strings to get parts made (as we did with the cams). It's really going to surprise you how very unpopular the Prelude was in its home market, and how badly regarded and generally ignored it was.
It's a great platform, inherently, but won't have nearly the availability of proved parts that the Integra will have.
Your job's going to be a lot easier, and you're going to spend less money getting ready if you can just find a DC2 ITR shell to start with. You can make arguments for an EK or EG hatch, but the ultimate solution with these chassis is going to cost more than if you'd just started with the Integra to start with.
I guess it has to be an H22 or H23 motor because your mechanic knows those motors best? It's true that they are awesome and under-rated generally, but just an FYI that parts can be a problem when you get to H1 shopping.
When Corey wanted cams for his car we had to get somebody who's a fairly big name in JDM to actually promise to buy enough cams that the machine shop in Japan would ramp up to make the cams again.
There were literally NO cams of that profile available when he wanted them.
If there's no way to talk you into B motors or K motors then I think you only have two choices:
(1)Prelude of '93/'94 type (second choice)
(2)Integra of DC2 vintage (first choice)
If you can score a DC2 ITR shell with the chassis and brakes intact, that would be incredible. The DC2 ITR ABS system is a lot better than any you might remember from days of auld lang syne and I think you will really be surprised. There's also a greater chance that you'd be able to race with the OEM ITR size brakes w/out having to spend the money on a big brake kit right away.
Moreover, because of its racing history in the N series and WC, there is no shortage of very well developed and entirely legal suspension systems available for the DC2 ITR. You can basically just ring up Opak or King and order a completely race ready suspension with an already proved history of winning races.
The old Prelude can't be sold short. It is an incredibly stable platform (like the Accord of that era) and it takes a lot to upset it. It's a hell of a lot faster than people might imagine (as Corey's proved a few times).
However, you will have a hard time finding the suspension you want. You basically have only one choice, which is to get the correctly valved and correctly shortened (or correctly extended-hatted) Konis with carefully researched springs.
You are already also probably aware that getting a Prelude's weight down to H1 just isn't going to happen. (But on the other hand there's no chance you'll have to go over the scales three times trying to make weight!!)
Since the Prelude has absolutely no racing history in the N series or any other popular Japanese series, you might also have to pull some strings to get parts made (as we did with the cams). It's really going to surprise you how very unpopular the Prelude was in its home market, and how badly regarded and generally ignored it was.
It's a great platform, inherently, but won't have nearly the availability of proved parts that the Integra will have.
Your job's going to be a lot easier, and you're going to spend less money getting ready if you can just find a DC2 ITR shell to start with. You can make arguments for an EK or EG hatch, but the ultimate solution with these chassis is going to cost more than if you'd just started with the Integra to start with.
10-22-2005, 08:55 AM
#59
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (HapaHaole)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HapaHaole »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For the engine, how about an NSX 3.2L block with K20a heads and shoot, might as well slap on an S2000 tranny.</TD></TR></TABLE>
H1 hybrids are displacement limited to keep somebody from using an NSX engine. It was 2.3 for the sake of the H23. There was talk about it being bumped to 2.4 so the K24 could be used, but I don't think they did it.
What is the H block minimum weight? 2400? Can a 4th gen Lude get down that low? Mine is over 3000lbs, I know that...
H1 hybrids are displacement limited to keep somebody from using an NSX engine. It was 2.3 for the sake of the H23. There was talk about it being bumped to 2.4 so the K24 could be used, but I don't think they did it.
What is the H block minimum weight? 2400? Can a 4th gen Lude get down that low? Mine is over 3000lbs, I know that...
10-22-2005, 12:29 PM
#60
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (George Knighton)
Ok, only people that actually know about the prelude chassis are able to talk..
My weight with me after the race was 2399. It CAN get lighter with a different rear brake setup (which is being made) and if the CF trunk rule come out, that will help..
Prelude front suspension is nearly identical to the DA, and can run civic/teg shocks.. The rear is a little different so I have to run different shocks..
My weight with me after the race was 2399. It CAN get lighter with a different rear brake setup (which is being made) and if the CF trunk rule come out, that will help..
Prelude front suspension is nearly identical to the DA, and can run civic/teg shocks.. The rear is a little different so I have to run different shocks..
10-22-2005, 03:43 PM
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (Raceworks)
The CRX has the best aero of any Honda up until the Insight.
Not only does it have a small frontal area, but the Cd was only 0.31 for the Si, and 0.30 for the HF (with a small rear spoiler, front air dam and narrower tires).
When the car came out, those drag numbers were out of this world. Of course, now we have sedans trimming in at 0.25-28, but cars like the Honda hatches, coupes, sedans, etc. from the last century were usually in the 0.34 and up range for Cd. Never saw specs on the Del Sol, but that 3-box design cannot be as aero friendly as the 28 degree angle of the rear glass on the CRX.
SC
Not only does it have a small frontal area, but the Cd was only 0.31 for the Si, and 0.30 for the HF (with a small rear spoiler, front air dam and narrower tires).
When the car came out, those drag numbers were out of this world. Of course, now we have sedans trimming in at 0.25-28, but cars like the Honda hatches, coupes, sedans, etc. from the last century were usually in the 0.34 and up range for Cd. Never saw specs on the Del Sol, but that 3-box design cannot be as aero friendly as the 28 degree angle of the rear glass on the CRX.
SC
10-23-2005, 07:39 PM
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (C_A_T)
Didn't the DC chassis have a Cd around 0.30 or 0.31? It's got a nice gradual rake to the hatch. Can't see its Cd being that much worse than the CRX. Although the frontal area of the CRX is probably 10-15% less than the DC, so it will have less aero resistance regardless.
10-24-2005, 05:37 AM
#64
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (speedracer33)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
H1 hybrids are displacement limited to keep somebody from using an NSX engine. It was 2.3 for the sake of the H23. There was talk about it being bumped to 2.4 so the K24 could be used, but I don't think they did it.
..</TD></TR></TABLE>
matt you really should know what you are talking about....
hybrid displacement is limited to 2.4
it wasn't so you couldn't put an nsx in...it was cause there was no honda engine avail over 2.3 at the time the rules were first written...
H1 hybrids are displacement limited to keep somebody from using an NSX engine. It was 2.3 for the sake of the H23. There was talk about it being bumped to 2.4 so the K24 could be used, but I don't think they did it.
..</TD></TR></TABLE>
matt you really should know what you are talking about....
hybrid displacement is limited to 2.4
it wasn't so you couldn't put an nsx in...it was cause there was no honda engine avail over 2.3 at the time the rules were first written...
10-24-2005, 06:11 AM
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (speedracer33)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dave Davis also has a comptech H22A in a 2nd gen Integra. I think it makes something like 260 at the crank, and weighs 1970 lbs.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You can watch this car at the ARRC in two weeks....
You can watch this car at the ARRC in two weeks....
10-24-2005, 08:03 AM
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (chad)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it wasn't so you couldn't put an nsx in...it was cause there was no honda engine avail over 2.3 at the time the rules were first written...</TD></TR></TABLE>
*Whys you talking crazy mang!*
3.0 V6 been around since '91
What am I missing here?
*Whys you talking crazy mang!*
3.0 V6 been around since '91
What am I missing here?
10-24-2005, 08:17 AM
#67
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (B18C5 EH)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5 EH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
*Whys you talking crazy mang!*
3.0 V6 been around since '91
What am I missing here?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Chad leaves out critical words sometimes. I think he meant "no honda 4cylinder" engines over 2.3L
*Whys you talking crazy mang!*
3.0 V6 been around since '91
What am I missing here?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Chad leaves out critical words sometimes. I think he meant "no honda 4cylinder" engines over 2.3L
10-24-2005, 08:50 AM
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (Honda318dx)
I figured it was something obvious like that waiting to smack me in the face.
So basicaly they wrote the rules to include all 4-cyl engines could be used in any chasis to make a "hybrid". But 6-cyl are not allowed. They just spelled it out in liters to make it cut and dry?
So basicaly they wrote the rules to include all 4-cyl engines could be used in any chasis to make a "hybrid". But 6-cyl are not allowed. They just spelled it out in liters to make it cut and dry?
10-24-2005, 08:55 AM
#69
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (B18C5 EH)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5 EH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I figured it was something obvious like that waiting to smack me in the face.
So basicaly they wrote the rules to include all 4-cyl engines could be used in any chasis to make a "hybrid". But 6-cyl are not allowed. They just spelled it out in liters to make it cut and dry?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I guess.. To keep someone from making a NSX powered Accord or something.. Which, has been done..
So basicaly they wrote the rules to include all 4-cyl engines could be used in any chasis to make a "hybrid". But 6-cyl are not allowed. They just spelled it out in liters to make it cut and dry?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I guess.. To keep someone from making a NSX powered Accord or something.. Which, has been done..
10-24-2005, 09:00 AM
#70
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (Honda318dx)
It sounds kinda cool...take a DC2R, tube frame it, NSX motor in the front, Hewland transaxle in the rear...only problem is that when you really look at it you wind up with a car that costs more than an NSX and doesn't perform as well....which isn't to say I wouldn't like to see somebody do it....just not me.
Scott, who thinks a working S2K race car for under 20K doesn't look to bad at all...
Scott, who thinks a working S2K race car for under 20K doesn't look to bad at all...
10-24-2005, 09:13 AM
#71
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (Honda318dx)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda318dx »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I guess.. To keep someone from making a NSX powered Accord or something.. Which, has been done..</TD></TR></TABLE>
I just can't stop thinking about the lightest chasis and bigest engine combo...
A mid engine rear wheel drive NSX powered CRX. Seen it done on some drag racing tv show. No doubt that thing would be fast if it handled any types of good.
Definetly HU, But for the cost of development you could buy 10 race cars... and actually have someone to race against.
But that thing would be the ultimate Honda built with production parts.
Any body know Jessie James' #... I got an idea.....
I just can't stop thinking about the lightest chasis and bigest engine combo...
A mid engine rear wheel drive NSX powered CRX. Seen it done on some drag racing tv show. No doubt that thing would be fast if it handled any types of good.
Definetly HU, But for the cost of development you could buy 10 race cars... and actually have someone to race against.
But that thing would be the ultimate Honda built with production parts.
Any body know Jessie James' #... I got an idea.....
10-24-2005, 12:54 PM
#72
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1..............
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5 EH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Nice
C'mon Sam, how about some pics.
That thing has got to be fast.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just cause you asked nicely
.
The new car. Raced at VIR (3.5hr enduro), Road Atlanta, & CMP this year. We're taking it to VIR in a couple of weeks.
The car we raced since 1998 in various forms, including last year's VIR 13 hour race.
Close-up of the brakes
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You should talk to Lockwood before you go too far w/one of these.
There can be extreme chassis flex problems, and the car is already surpisingly heavy before you bolster it w/a cage.
And who's going to be driving this? If it's you, I think you'd better spend a couple of hours in one of these things before you decide to condemn yourself to spending sprint sessions under load in them.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Actually a good cage pretty much takes care of the chassis flex. The flex comes from the removable top. With a decent weld-in cage the car becomes a tank. Without a cage, some of the pre-1994 models will flex so much pop the back window out of the rails.
The car does very well any place that has some high speed turns. The aero-stability & low CG make up for the high weight. I'd say it'd be top car at Roebling and very good for Road Atlanta, VIR, Summit Point, and Lowe's. CMP is the only place I can't seem to make it work very well. Then again I've grown to really hate that track in a production-based car (it's only tolerable in the Formula Mazda).
Nice
C'mon Sam, how about some pics.
That thing has got to be fast.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just cause you asked nicely
.The new car. Raced at VIR (3.5hr enduro), Road Atlanta, & CMP this year. We're taking it to VIR in a couple of weeks.
The car we raced since 1998 in various forms, including last year's VIR 13 hour race.
Close-up of the brakes
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You should talk to Lockwood before you go too far w/one of these.
There can be extreme chassis flex problems, and the car is already surpisingly heavy before you bolster it w/a cage.
And who's going to be driving this? If it's you, I think you'd better spend a couple of hours in one of these things before you decide to condemn yourself to spending sprint sessions under load in them.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Actually a good cage pretty much takes care of the chassis flex. The flex comes from the removable top. With a decent weld-in cage the car becomes a tank. Without a cage, some of the pre-1994 models will flex so much pop the back window out of the rails.
The car does very well any place that has some high speed turns. The aero-stability & low CG make up for the high weight. I'd say it'd be top car at Roebling and very good for Road Atlanta, VIR, Summit Point, and Lowe's. CMP is the only place I can't seem to make it work very well. Then again I've grown to really hate that track in a production-based car (it's only tolerable in the Formula Mazda).
10-24-2005, 02:45 PM
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (Raceworks)
Looks good Sam ,
I don't see enough of them in race trim. It looks like a better rear center of grav. over my hatch, I still think more people should run them, the're are a couple of drawbacks, chasis flex wich is fixable like you said, and every class has a minimum weight... how close are you in H1.
Do they weigh what they do because of the reinforcement in the a-pillars for the removable roof?
,I don't see enough of them in race trim. It looks like a better rear center of grav. over my hatch, I still think more people should run them, the're are a couple of drawbacks, chasis flex wich is fixable like you said, and every class has a minimum weight... how close are you in H1.
Do they weigh what they do because of the reinforcement in the a-pillars for the removable roof?
10-24-2005, 06:43 PM
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Re: OK! So I want to race in H1.............. (B18C5 EH)
The whole unibody is reinforced (all convertible-type cars usually are). The A-pillars and such are pretty light, so that means that most of the weight is below the windshield.
Car is roughly 100lb over minimum (about 2,300 lb) depending on fuel load. Of course, I could do a K-swap with little or no ballast...
The good part is that the relatively low CG, and the fact that the car is a tank. The older car (#16 in the pictures), moved a concrete barrier at Sebring its first pro race in 1998 and it's still a competetive chassis.
Car is roughly 100lb over minimum (about 2,300 lb) depending on fuel load. Of course, I could do a K-swap with little or no ballast...
The good part is that the relatively low CG, and the fact that the car is a tank. The older car (#16 in the pictures), moved a concrete barrier at Sebring its first pro race in 1998 and it's still a competetive chassis.
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