DillonInCO

Hey folks. I'm not sure this is the right forum, but here goes anyway!

I've decided to build a dual-purpose Honda for track and street use. But I'm not sure what to get. My friends are building LS turbo Integras, and they make convincing arguments that that is the fastest, cheapest, most reliable way to a powerful Honda that will go just as well as it turns. But...I'm considering other options, because why not? I'm even looking into CB Accords

Goals...because that'll surely be the first question...

- Street legal, and only minor weight reduction. I want to retain A/C, smog equipment, and carpet.

- Handles well (duh). Something I won't fight on track.

- Reliable. It needs to survive multiple track weekends per year, and a commute through stop and go traffic.

- HP numbers aren't too important, but thinking between a 10:1 and 11:1 power to weight ratio. Because, my friends with Integras are shooting for between 220 and 250 WHP, and those are relatively light compared to something like a Prelude.

- Completely redone suspension. Coilovers, camber kits, urethane bushings, etc. Anything that needs to be replaced to make the car stick better.

- Total build budget of around $8K to start. More could go into it as time goes on.

So...with that in mind, what car would you go with, and why? Thanks in advance

billabongrob

iTrader: (1)

92-95 civic.
Pros: Readily available parts.

Not sure why you need so much power on the track, but that's none of my business.

DillonInCO

Oh, there's no need of course, it's just a want. I (and my other two friends who are going LS turbo) have owned and frequently tracked a few lightweight, lower power cars over the years. I also have an '08 Si that I take to the track when I can. We just want to step it up a bit

Are parts for the EG / EH cheaper and/or more plentiful than an Integra or Prelude?

mattbatson

just keep tracking your 08 si....it handles great, has all the comforts of home like a/c and so on, makes 200hp, will be very reliable and probably have much fewer teething problems than a turbo integra.

wont have the power to weight ratio, but if you really feel the need to modify a car/build something, than do some bolt on mod's to the 08 for more hp, modify the suspension, get bigger wheels with track day only tires, etc.

If you already track it, then I would suggest continuing to learn and improve with a platform that handles really well from the factory and is reliable as hell.
while your friends are building their integra's in the garage, you can be out on track. Besides, turbo's can be tricky on road courses unless done right. KISS wins every time.


got any in car video of your track days?

kingofbattle909

iTrader: (6)

Miata

joel n

Well, if you want to be different, but still simple, go with a 95 Del Sol VTEC. There just a Civic, intergra anyway, Get the VTEC Model and that will get you the B16A2 motor. They came loaded, plus the targa roof. We Roadrace one, and love it. There bit heavy, but if you want A/C and power windows in the civic or integra, they will be the same.

Plus beating people at the track with "a girly looking car" is just so much fun.

George Knighton

DC2 ITR, stock or lightly modified. In the long run, this will save you money because of how it was delivered to start with.

For example, you'll have to add quite a bit of HP before you have to change the brakes, and there are a lot of current H1 competitors who are still using stock ITR brakes on cars that dyno something like 250 HP.

Just leave it as close to alone as you can while you spend the majority of your money learning how to drive on the track. :-)

The guy who said "Miata" is going to get picked on, but that's an entirely valid, and very inexpensive, logical choice. It's a hell of a lot of fun for very little money, and the huge preponderance of Spec Miata cars makes intelligent advice easy to come by.

Again, though, don't waste money on improving the car until you've spent money learning how to drive on the track.

George Knighton

And, one more thing:

Do not take a car to the track if you cannot afford to lose it.

In the 12 years that I was driving on road course, I only had one motor blow, and I only had one car-to-car contact, and it was judged the other guy's fault.

But, remember...the possibility is always there. You have to be able to expect to lose and afford to lose a car that you're taking on the course.

Listen to the instructors and try to do what they're telling you, even if it sounds like they're trying to slow you down.

There is a reason they're doing it. :-)

DillonInCO

I think either I wasn't clear enough or a lot of people missed the point. LOL I appreciate the input anyway So...clarifications...

Whatever I buy, the focus will be open track / Time Trials. Yes I want it street legal, but it being capable on track is equally important. I would even consider ditching A/C and power steering, but the smog equipment has to stay. And ideally, I'd retain A/C, because I do want a car I'll be relatively comfortable in on the street. I'm not talking Lexus here, but A/C sure is nice in 100+ degree summer heat!

The power / weight I mentioned is the end goal. Not an immediate one. Why go for that? Because I never have before, and I can. I have tracked lots of cars in the 20 to 15:1 power range (a Miata and 944 being two of them). Regardless, whatever car I buy, it will have the suspension, brakes, cooling, etc. all sorted out first. I'll have it on track with the stock engine. Lots. Then when I'm confident I really know the car and can go no faster, I'll step it up.

A few people commented on seat time, instruction, learning to drive, etc. I believe that one can always hone their skills...and having been out of the game for a while, no doubt I'll benefit from seat time. But, safe to say this isn't my first rodeo Current NASA TT license holder, former comp license holder. I only let it lapse because I got out of W2W due to budget constraints.

Speaking of which...ITR is far too expensive unfortunately; with my entire build budget I can't even get close to buying a stock one

As for the Si, I will take it to the track occasionally until I get another, more dedicated car. But, I don't want to abuse my daily driver (and only car) too much. Meaning, building that car for track use isn't my goal. As George just said, it's a big risk, because I can't afford to lose that car. It's why I want something more dedicated. Not completely dedicated, just more so. I'm certain it'll hold up in the short term, though. It's a blast to drive, and super reliable.

The only video I have in the Si is a quick one from my first time in the car, on 280 treadwear tires and stock brakes (OEM pads), so take it with a grain of salt I suppose I cooked the stock brakes, rotors and pads both. Just installed TSX front brakes on it since it wasn't much more expensive than replacing stock rotors and pads. Hoping to get back out there with some better pads that won't leave me stranded. Again, though, it's not my end goal.

Edit: I don't know why this forum forces YouTube videos to be embedded, but this is what I was referring to:

Tegra206

iTrader: (2)

If you wanna go cheap get an OBDO or OBD1 civic with a b16a swap already installed. Emissions requirements will be lower and tuning will be cheaper(no conversion harness required). Civic's have the most and cheapest parts, and honestly you can swap alot of parts from civics and teggies to get mild upgrades for cheap, if you can do your own work!

liam821

Fast, Reliable, Cheap, pick any two.

red0

Fast, Reliable, Cheap, pick any two.

.....You could pick 3 and get a E36 325i with cold weather package.

George Knighton

My answer remains the same. :-)

The Miata and the DC2 ITR are very, very well proved and very well developed, with countless documented successful suspensions and modifications. If your daily driver is a Civic or other FF car, the Miata will present some challenges in the beginning, and you'll probably have a couple of entertaining moments while you figure out the differences in dynamics.

With the FF cars on the track, all of them, the challenge becomes learning how to drive efficiently enough that you avoid the problem of terminal understeer, how to enter a corner correctly to avoid it, and how to master the momentary lift that points the nose without making you spin.

No power steering on an ITR is not something that I recommend, however. It's too heavy to move around the paddock when you're tired on a Sunday after doing four twenty-minutes sprint sessions on a 100+ degree day in August.

Maybe that's just an old man talking, of course. LOL....

I'd also recommend white instead of black, if you can find one. I remember once in an August at Summit Point, resting my arms on #120 (white) with a clipboard to take some notes, and then moving to #110 (black) and burning my arms immediately.

A black car on the track...not a good idea in the summer.

Other than the two cars that I'm talking about, the others have strengths and weaknesses, but more weaknesses compared to just finding a solid ITR in the first place and learning how to drive it before you do anything else.

The later Civics, they seem to suffer from having parts that are too expensive, and from too many opinions about the suspension, and the questions aren't all answered except for maybe Andrie finding a combination good enough to win his races for a couple of years. But that might've been an accident that nobody else could repeat...in other words it was a combination of hitting on a decent combination of parts, plus his natural tendencies and proclivities with driving styles.

In the beginning, let's face it, you could throw yourself way off the pace just by having the wrong driving position. It sounds like you have so much to learn at this stage that you might be best served by getting into NASA Group One and learning your way with your street car for a while, before you get too carried away.

But I'm not really sure of your real background, of course.

Going with older cars, the last two generations of Prelude are very, very stable on the track. That wide track can't be talked about too much. It's a big advantage.

But if you go with a Prelude, you'll be limited by the lack of suspension and motor parts once you get good. I remember one year the only way we got the H1 Prelude on the track was that a famous Japanese tuner volunteered to buy an entire production run of JUN cams just so that he could send us two sets of them.

The parts are rare, and the research was never completed, because everybody went with Integras as the obvious, already JDM-developed choice.

Don't ignore {cheap}, either.

One year the boys took my old commuter car, a 1994 Accord LX 5-speed, with like 300,000 miles on it, the heads never even taken off. They stripped the interior out of it, bolted a cage into it (the rules were different back then), and lo and behold it proved to be invincible in H4...partly because of the drivers but partly because it had the same wide track stance that we talked about with the last two generations of Prelude.

Very, very cheap. And you can do odd things to it that the rules do not expect, like finding a rear disk brake setup from an Accord Wagon.

I can't talk about this too much: At this stage of your game, it's the driving you want to worry about the most, and the car's not as important as being sure you know how to drive right.

red0

That is some pretty interesting stuff. One of our drivers is 64 years young and during the WRL enduros, at about an hour and a half he radios in complaining the steering wheel is too small. Our 92' civic is 2200 lbs with an LSD running 225 width tires and a 13" steering wheel.

George Knighton

LOL....

I understand and sympathize with his comments. :-)

JDMaccordwagon

I autocross, and plan to do track days with my '93 Accord wagon. It has a H22a, gutted and ported intake with 68mm TB, Type S cams, RMF header, 3" exhaust, and tuned on Hondata S300. Suspension wise it's on GC coils with KYB AGX struts, and I have a Progress 20mm rear sway bar to put on it. The car handles great with a set of sticky tires, and held it's own in STF against RSX-S', SER Sentra's, Civic SI's, etc. That was all with an auto transmission. I just recently blew the trans finally (stock F22 auto trans with 200k), and I'm going manual and putting her on a diet. Obviously everyone is going to tell you to get a Civic/CRX/Integra, but honestly, any car can be fun to drive with the right work. So I say you get a CB chassis! Plus H22's bolt right in

Hites

I always liked the idea of a k24 crx...

kingofbattle909

iTrader: (6)

OP, what did you decide on?

alenehan

He gone!