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HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins...

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Old 08-02-2005, 04:35 AM
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Default HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins...

http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/2069695.phtml
Old 08-02-2005, 04:45 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (Willard)

thats too bad.

and a month before I'm up there makes me think about everything/safety even more, which is the only positive I can get from it.

condolences to his family.
Old 08-02-2005, 04:45 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (Willard)

Cars are getting faster.
DEs are getting very popular.
People are dying. More than I've seen in my 11 years doing this stuff.

I fear that the DE concept may be in trouble.
Old 08-02-2005, 04:52 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (Catch 22)

I get an "access denied" at work to that site... ya! government.

DEs are getting popular. Popular enough that some people feel the need to take out something they cant handle or their is SUCH a competative spirit that they over drive what they have.

In our club... the only term we use for "going fast" or "doing well" is "I rolled a R" ... We dont attempt to compete with each other, we just enjoy learning from each other. Some guys will follow the other with a camera on for a couple of laps before getting pointed by, just so we have material to study... We'll sit and talk about lines while watching video all saturday night. I cant wait to get back out on track!

A death in our "sport" is always tragic. But what we do isnt "safe." That family will be in my prayers.
Old 08-02-2005, 04:56 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (MMsportsRexSi)

Originally Posted by From the Audi link
Fatality at Driver Education event this weekend.
User account number (aid): 1150 Advertiser
Posted by Todd/A.W.E. on 2005-08-01 08:32:52
A member of our local Porsche Club was killed while driving during an event held at Watkins Glen International raceway this past weekend.

While the details of the crash are still under investigation, reports gathered during our instructor meeting at the track indicate that the driver lost control under braking in the "laces of the boot" area of the track.

The crash was a single car incident. It was head-on into the tire barrier at the bottom of this downhill turn. Reports confirm that the driver's helmet was partially removed from his head after the crash, but remained intact.

The driver was in our green run group, which is our beginner run group. Speeds in this turn are around 70-80mph for beginning drivers.

I am making this post because the hobby of attending Driver Education events at racetracks has grown tremendously over the last decade, and I know a lot of forum members here participate in them.

For those people who may not be familiar with Driver Education events, they are organization run lapping days at racetracks. You bring your own car and run at speed with other cars on the racetrack. Passing is limited to straight-aways and only with a permission signal from the driver being passed. They are not competitions, and therefore do not really qualify as a sport. They are for enjoyment and for furthering one's skills as a driver.

I have been participating in track events for 13 years, and am a nationally certified driving instructor with the Porsche Club of America (PCA). I have been driving primarily with the local Porsche Club region, the Riesentöter Region of the PCA. I have also driven with at least a dozen other PCA club regions, Audi clubs, and independent driving clubs throughout the years, and have instructed at most of them, too.

Our club is one of the better ones in terms of organization and safety, in my opinion. I say this not to criticize the other clubs, but to show that even in the best run organizations, fatal incidents can happen during Driver Education events.

In our club, a minimum of five point safety harnesses are required for the intermediate run group and higher. We have five run groups, and the first two qualify as beginner. Helmets must be a Snell Rating of 95 or 2000 and all drivers must wear long sleeve natural fiber shirts and pants as a minimum. We have no other requirements as far as safety, but most experienced drivers do use many more safety items in their cars or on their bodies, such as racing seats, neck collars, nomex race suits and boots/gloves, roll bars/cages, and neck support devices.

This incident may cause our club to change our safety equipment mandates, or it may not. What concerns me is that there may not be a full realization among participants on how risky this hobby can be. If a fatality can happen at the beginner level of our club, it can happen in any other club, too. Ultimately, unless clubs start instituting stricter minimum requirements, it is up to you as the driver to ensure that you are properly equipped for safety. Currently, the minimum requirements may not be enough.

Reports at the track from eyewitnesses to the crash and the immediate aftermath suggest that a neck support device may have saved this man's life. I am nervous to state this in public, as it may be premature considering that no official coroner report has been issued, and the incident is at this time still under investigation. But I was at the track, and the information that prompts me to make this statement is not from third or fourth hand accounts, altered or blurred as it passes from person to person. It is the best info available at the time, and I do not feel that the recommendation for more safety devices can be reckless. I do not want to suggest that the driver was somehow negligent in not using a neck support device, either, as I myself have not been using one, not have most of the instructors, let alone drivers, that I see at events. I know that it is treading almost on forbidden territory to start making conclusions or statements about someone's death so soon after it happened and how it possibly could have been prevented, and I thought long and hard about writing this. I am writing this with the best intentions and due respect.

There are a few neck support devices on the market at this time. They gained in use especially after Dale Earnhardt died in a crash at the Daytona 500 in 2001. It is commonly believed that Dale died of a basilar skull fracture, which has become recognized as a very common cause of death among race drivers. Whether or not a neck support device would have saved Dale, this device was designed to minimize the chance of this type of injury. With the Watkins Glen fatality this past weekend, the fact that the driver's helmet had lifted forward off his head in a frontal impact may suggest that a neck support device may have helped here, too. I am not qualified to make definitive conclusions about this incident, but once again, I do not feel that I am out of line suggesting more safety when participating in these type of events.

In all the years I have been participating in Driver Education events, I have only witnessed two injuries serious enough to require emergency medical treatment and hospitalization. Considering the number of track days I have attended and the number of participants these events assemble, that is not a lot. This past weekend was a wake up call for a lot of us. Many of my fellow instructors were in tears, as was I, and all of us were in shock and disbelief.

If you plan on attending a Driver Education event for the first time, or have been attending them for years, please take the extra time to reassess your safety protocols. A lot of safety equipment is still expensive, but any piece of equipment that is certified has been proven to provide protection for the driver if used properly. Neck support devices are still an expensive piece of equipment, and there are three different designs that I know of, but I now believe that they should be on the short list of mandatory pieces of equipment, even for first timers. Instructors should note, however, that not every design allows use with three point safety belts, and a lot of beginner drivers requiring instructors only have these type of belts in their cars. Perhaps five point harnesses should now be mandatory even for even first timers.

Bengt-Erik Wilholm, the driver killed this weekend, was a customer of ours. Our prayers are with his family.

Todd Sager
A.W.E. Tuning
Order line: 1-888-565-2257
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Old 08-02-2005, 05:00 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (Catch 22)

As the post says........."Safety equipment is expensive"...yes we know that, but there is even a greater value on life..........sheeesh !!! what a shame...

After all the years I have been doing track events and racing, and only the last 2 years with an Isaac H & N restraint, it scares the **** out of me to think what could have happened all those previous years.....


I know its expensive guys but you need to get some sort of H&N restraint !!!! They are becoming more affordable.
Old 08-02-2005, 05:02 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (Willard)

Very sad indeed.
Old 08-02-2005, 05:06 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (CRX Toad)

i know they are more affordable now. BUT the current H&N also requires the use of at least a roll bar, seats, and harnesses. thats a big bill... one i will have to tackle.
Old 08-02-2005, 05:18 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (MMsportsRexSi)

All of those things are in fact expensive.
But still cheaper than a nice casket.

Sometimes we all need an awakening to snap us out of our "It'll never happen to me" mentality. Seeing Adam destroy his car on the wall at Road Atlanta, then jump out of it and hop over the wall was my awakening. He was wearing an Isaac.

Now I have an Isaac, and won't drive at any sort of speed without one.

Don't be surprised if roll bars and harnesses become manditory for DEs within a few years. Its fairly inevitable at this point.

Old 08-02-2005, 05:31 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (Catch 22)

Things like this make me consider canning the rest of the events this year and parking the car until I get a full cage welded in, instead of just having the welded-in rollbar.
Old 08-02-2005, 05:33 AM
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I am with RJ... I have decided that I am not getting on the track in any car without a full cage.
Old 08-02-2005, 05:36 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (Willard)

Hmmm...damn. This is the first official non-urban legend of a death at an HPDE that I'm aware of.

Remember this: This gets picked up by 20/20 or 60 Minutes and HPDE as we know it is done.
Old 08-02-2005, 05:40 AM
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As someone on this forum said... our sport is one lawsuit away from extinction.

I am a novice in autox... virgin in DEs... I listen to the elders when they tell me not to push too hard in autox. Others don't and some have paid the price. Give the novices a slap on the wrist if they start showing bad tendencies. Its probably the only way they will learn.
Old 08-02-2005, 05:47 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (MaddMatt)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaddMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hmmm...damn. This is the first official non-urban legend of a death at an HPDE that I'm aware of.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

There was that guy in the carrera GT out at california speedway earlier this year as well.
Old 08-02-2005, 05:50 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (Willard)

I'm a little lost as to what the purpose of this guy's post is. He gives no detail about the incident - because he seems to have none, yet he goes on and on to talk about safety equipment which may or may not (he has no idea) changed the outcome of this situation.

IMO, the author sounds like he's exploiting an accident to further his agenda.

I'm not saying that additional safety equipment might not have saved the guy's life... but without specific details of the wreck, any discussion beyond sending condolences to the family is premature. Panick messages like these will only ensure that the insurance companies and/or government will remove your right to participate in your chosen hobby.
Old 08-02-2005, 05:51 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (.RJ)

so in lew of all this... keep your eyes out for a roll bar for a 90 CRX... and two seats for "round" people please.
Old 08-02-2005, 06:01 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (MMsportsRexSi)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There was that guy in the carrera GT out at california speedway earlier this year as well.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wasn't an HPDE.
Old 08-02-2005, 06:04 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (MaddMatt)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaddMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Wasn't an HPDE.</TD></TR></TABLE>

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4562562/detail.html
Old 08-02-2005, 06:06 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (.RJ)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Things like this make me consider canning the rest of the events this year and parking the car until I get a full cage welded in, instead of just having the welded-in rollbar.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This incident happened at a DE event in my local PCA region, Reisentoter. Erik was a very nice guy and this is a terrible tragedy.

I was down at VIR with many of you when I heard the news on Saturday night, and I backed it off a bit for Sunday.

If this can happen in the Green run group with Reisentoter, it can happen in any run group, in any club. Its more common to have bad accidents in higher run groups because speeds are faster and people are driving much closer to the edge.

I'm placing an order for a Hans Device today. I'm not sure if that would have helped in Erik's case, but I'm going to make sure that I have the maximum amount of safety equipment possible. I'm also installing an interior net (goes along the right side of the driver's seat) to better contain the driver in case of a side impact. You can see these side nets if you watch the Speed Touring Car races, I think every driver there has one.

There are risks with this stuff we do, and too often we assume that its much safer than it actually is.

Todd is one of our more senior instructors, and in his post that was quoted above I think he does an excellent job of laying out the case for all of us to think a little more about the risks, and to take saftey up a notch.

For me, this means not driving on the track unless the car is a dedicated track car and has a full cage, 5-6-7 pt harness and H&N restraint.
Old 08-02-2005, 06:10 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (MaddMatt)

Maybe its risky to go out without the equipment in your first HPDE. But once you know you are hooked, and its something you want to pursue, why not invest in good safety equipment through out the duration in your time in HPDEs? It just makes more sense.
Old 08-02-2005, 06:10 AM
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Obviously this is awful news. My condolences.

Personally I think the cars are just getting faster. The order of the day on the grid of any THSCC track event is no longer Miatas and Civics. It's M3s and Corvettes. I'm seeing rank novices show up in Porsche 993s on Kumhos. It's different than it was say ten years ago.

I will also suggest that Watkins Glen is among the more dangerous places to have a DE. I know I wouldn't think of doing in-car there. Road Atlanta is the same way. Too fast, too much stuff to run into. The only DE I ever did at Watkins Glen, we threw away three cars in two sessions.

Personally, I don't think the days of DEs are numbered. But I do see stricter safety equipment requirements on the horizon. This will thin the fields a bit, which may or may not be a good thing.
Old 08-02-2005, 06:11 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (JeffS)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm a little lost as to what the purpose of this guy's post is. He gives no detail about the incident - because he seems to have none, yet he goes on and on to talk about safety equipment which may or may not (he has no idea) changed the outcome of this situation.

IMO, the author sounds like he's exploiting an accident to further his agenda.

I'm not saying that additional safety equipment might not have saved the guy's life... but without specific details of the wreck, any discussion beyond sending condolences to the family is premature. Panick messages like these will only ensure that the insurance companies and/or government will remove your right to participate in your chosen hobby.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Please guys lets be respectful about this. Todd is a great guy, with a ton of experience and knowledge. We don't have full details on the incident yet, and we may never know all of the details.

We do know that Erik's Boxster went head-on into a tire wall and that he was wearing a 6pt harness. In this type of accident its generally believed that a H&N system would help. Todd admits that he doesn't know if it would have saved Erik's life. Personally I'll spend the $800 on the HANS to take any possible advantage I can get.
Old 08-02-2005, 06:14 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (dmingis)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4562562/detail.html</TD></TR></TABLE>

Doesn't say anything about being a school. I've read posts indicating this was an open track day and the passenger was riding to "check out the GT" because he wanted to buy one.
Old 08-02-2005, 06:17 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (dmingis)

JOHNWAYNE just brought to my attention that there is an affordable Isaac's available, $295 for the Isaac Link. http://isaacdirect.com/html/product.html Anyone know anything about it?

On another note, something I was thinking about was how safety systems have to work AS a system. Wasn't there something about needing a seat with the head bolsters to use a H&N restraint? Or is that just "better?"
Old 08-02-2005, 06:19 AM
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Default Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (dmingis)

The best question that the original strand raises is which H&N systems might/might not work without a proper race harness. The Wright Device MIGHT actually afford some margin of safety for example, even if it isn't actually tested in that configuration.

It's situations like this that remind us how important it is that information about H&N systems be available. I do NOT think that it's "an agenda" - in any negative connotation of the word - to want to increase awareness about these issues so I'm going to put a reminder out here about http://www.headrestraint.org and its mission to do just that.

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