6spdKEG

Background : 95 EX 1.6vtec converted with 99 Integra GSR brakes ABS compatible. K20a2 swap and yada yada ya. ..

I got a 40/40 valve coming. I know I need to upgrade the MC from the 7/8” to 15/16 or larger. And I need to order some SS brake lines.. .

Question of the day… . Do I need to switch out the Boosters to run the larger 15/16” MC from the Del Sol? Does it hold more fluid or what’s the deal?

I have an opportunity to get the Del Sol 15/16 MC and Booster for $90.


Del Sol B16 Doch 15/16” MC with Booster w/o ABS
http://www.autopartsauthority....&my=1
This looks smaller diameter wise than what I have already. But its beefier thickness wise.

EX / si 1.6 soch vtec with 7/8” MC w/o ABS
http://www.autopartsauthority....de=HO
This shows a 9” more flat boost which is what my Ex cpe looks like.

Other things I have for brakes
Carbotech AX6 pads
AP racing DOT 5.1 fluid
Brembo slotted rotors from TireRack.com
removed Dust guards from all corners

chad

just get a good pad....

and quit dragging your brake...get all your braking done now!! get off the brake and turn in....

seriously you don't need all that stuff...just step up to a better pad....until you start racing.

a good pad and good fuild should be all you need for a 20-30min hpde....if you are having problems you are braking wrong!!!!

i don't even have stainless lines on the rear of my race car!

6spdKEG

I'm with ya Chad but then again, you do have the correct proportional valve & the larger 15/16" MC and booster already on your setup. I'm pretty sure I definetely need the 40/40 valve and the larger MC atleast. Stainless lines I could probably do without.

What I have noticed though, from actually doing an HPDE, that near the end, there was mushyness in the pedal towards the end of the stroke when doing the high speed braking. I had my Carbotech AX6 pads and AP racing dot5.1 fluid in.

I think this mushyness came from not having a large enough MC and possibly those rubber brake lines expanding. It may have been the Pads though.

I just really need to now if I can just upgrade the MC without needing to upgrade the booster as well. SS lines are going to wait untill after winter anyways.

Safety first, brakes are part of safety.
Thanks for the help

chad

no i don't have the PP valve.....

it doesn't matter...i've had 4 hatches with rear disk's without PP or the larger master/booster....

6spdKEG

thats interesting.. .

Thanks for the experienced info.

I guess my AX6 pads weren't doing their job then.. .

6spdKEG

Just ordered some carbotech XP10 front pads and XP8 rear pads and dedicated rotors.

Still getting the 40/40 prop valve and will not be getting the MC and booster.

the larger MC actually decreases line pressure anyhow. Bigger is not always better. If anything, a larger resevior for holding brake fluid would be a good upgrade I think. more fluid = more heat distribution.

Stinkycheezmonky

The only thing the bigger MC will do is increase pedal pressure, which a lot of people (myself included) prefer for feel. It does nothing for performance. You need better pads and to stop using the brakes so much. It's a typical noob thing to over-use the brakes, so don't go out fixing the car, fix your technique. And XP10s with street tires will be problematic, as it's real easy to lock 'em up with those pads.

For the MC issue, you have to search in the archives, that's been covered a gillion times.

6spdKEG

dually noted on using my brakes too much.
late into the HPDEs I would notice fad in the AX6s so yes, it could have been me on the brakes too much or I was putting them past their abilities which I'm going to say is the case.

About locking the tires up. I guess I will just have to heat my tires(Ventus Rs2s) up and be gentle on the brakes for the first lap.

I will have the AX6 panther Pluss pads and rotors for backup if I need them.

One thing I'm thinking of is on Oct 20th(my next HPDE), the weather is going to be fairly cold. probably 30-60 throughout the coarse of the day. Should I be highly concerned or just concerned that Xp10s are going to be locking up my 200treadwear Hankooks?

Ryan

Stinkycheezmonky

That temperature is fine in general for tracking, though it'll probably be a little slippery in the mornings. Do NOT heat up your tires by weaving back and forth or anything. Since the RS2 is a street tire, that'll only promote you overheating it later in the day. It does absolutely no good to heat up street tires like that. Definitely be gentle with the brakes, as they WILL need heating up. The first lap or two, make sure you leave a little extra distance for braking zones and you'll be fine.

spock_rocker

when i did my GSR brake conversion, i got a 15/16th MC and didn't bolt up to my DX booster(didnt know this at the time) so i didn't bother swaping out the PP or MC/BB and with the better pads, fluid(motul) SS lines.. i stop/slow down really well and ive had very little brake fad at the track! the pedal feel is still increased over stock!

6spdKEG

well, I decided to not risk the bad matchup of street tire Rs2 vs all out racing brake pads and I got some Hankook Z211 soft R compund tires coming for all 4 corners.

Stinkycheezmonky

You're not a track noob, right? R-comps are a bad idea for that.

TegRr

How long have you been HPDEing? You have a really fast car. There is such thing as too much.....braking, tires, suspension. They all gots to match to have a fun and safe car. Don't ignore the steel braided lines. Get that done. Safety first, right?
The R compounds are great......but remember there is less room for mistakes. You're going to be so much faster and the window for correcting your mistakes is whole lot smaller.
The best way to start to become a great driver is with a bone stock car. Since you wouldn't have alot to work with this will teach you to perfect your techniques. A new driver with a car that highly modified will tend to ignore the small details in handling a car just because they can make it up on the straights......and those bad habits will follow you for the rest of your HPDE life.

6spdKEG

yep, pretty much a track noob.

The car was built for tracking so it will get used for tracking. It's not like I can just switch back to a D or B16 and make my car slower so my skills can catch up.

If my car was too fast for the AX6 pads and hankook RS2s then somthing has to be done? Should I just take it easy on the throttle or should I go ahead and upgrade brakes and R comps.

Well, tough decision... .
I think the best idea is to have enough brake and tire to be safe for the speed and handeling ability of your car.

During my first HPDE, I took it easy when I needed to and I did not go into "RACE" mode at ANY time b/c I knew I was learning techniques as well as learning the abilities of my car. Did I test my car's and my own limits at times? YES.. . But the track is where you do this correct?

I'm the type of person that learns quickly and I'm not scared of a challenge, but my car is pretty much scary fast for a NA car. I don't think you are driving the right car if it doesn't scare you just a bit. You have to respect the car and I deffinetely respect my car.. .

mike-y

you can be fast on street tires, its all about driver technique. IMO, race tires will get you into trouble a lot faster, and also cover up driver mistakes. Not to mention you will wear them out a lot faster if you aren't driving properly.

I'm using carbotech XP8 pads on my HPDE car. they are a good match for both street and track driving, as in they also work well when cold, and hold up to the high temps of the track. Also, what brake fluid are you using? make sure you have some good dot 4 fluid in there. I use the valvoline dot 4 stuff that comes in the gold bottle. cheap and effective.

I'd say get your brakes sorted out, and don't worry about the tires just yet. you don't *need* SS lines right away, so don't worry about them if they don't come in time. good fluid, good pads are most of what you need. If you swap to an integra 15/16 MC, you need to swap the booster too. although the 90-91 prelude Si came with a 15/16 MC that will bolt onto the civic booster.

fast parts and fast driving are two seperate things. learning to drive fast on street tires will make you a much better driver, and also a much faster driver when you make the switch up to race tires/parts.

Stinkycheezmonky

You really should not have ordered R-comps. They don't last as long as street tires, even on track, they hide lots of mistakes, and they aren't very forgiving when you screw up. They're also easier to ruin by flat-spotting, and aren't super cheap. Since you already kind of screwed up and started with a fast engine, limit your application of the gas pedal and stick with street tires. Something I did with a guy I was instructing who had an STi was to leave it in 3rd gear until both of us felt comfortable.

What I think would be a good idea is to get Carbotech XP8s or Cobalt GT-Sports, and some new street tires (I'm a fan of Azenis and have been for the past four years, but there are lots of good choices). Either hold onto or sell the XP10s and the Hankooks. And skip the braided brake lines, they're not necessary for now.

Your idea of having "enough brake and tire for the ability of the car" is incorrect. YOU are in control of the car, so if it's getting out of hand, it's because you gave too much gas, or stood on the brakes too hard, or whatever. Your ability will be far behind the ability of the car for a long time. You'll have enough challenges as it is with ANY car, let alone what sounds like a prepped H1-ish car, you don't need to make more problems for yourself with a really steep learning curve.

This isn't a personal criticism, just the opinion of an instructor and someone who's been doing this for a few years. I've learned some of this crap the hard way, and would like to steer away someone who just doesn't know better.

6spdKEG

I totally repect the experience you bring "STINYCHEEZMONKY" but the fact of the matter is that I have a FAST car. My skill is way above par for a track noob. My instructor and many other instructors confired this as I consistantly whooped many other cars around the track and posted track times that of and quicker than Group 3 people when i was running goup1 with Autocross Hankook RS2s. They timed me on my third session ever on the track.. .

I'm not going to sacrifice car components b/c my car is faster than my ability. You buy a porsche or BMW with track worthly components stock. My honda now has track worthly components for the engine it has been given.

Yes H1 is my goal, maybe I may be taking a shorcut through not using RT615s for a long time, but I'm not wanting to risk overheating my brake pads b/c my skill has overdcome a inferior pad. If I feel that the tires and pads are too much for my comfort, I will switch back to XP8s and Street Tires.

I realize you can learn bad habbits though using good components, but I would like to think that my learning curve is well matched with the curve I have taken with my car. I still have many upgrades to do such as higher spring rates and more dyno tunning among roll cage and yada yada yada.

We will see how my track day goes next weekend around some cones with the R compounds. This will be a solo Event.. .

thanks for the input, Ryan

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6spdKEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My skill is way above par for a track noob.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No its not.

Just because your car has all sorts of sack in a straight line, doesnt mean you are ready for whatever you think you can throw at the car.

Stay with street tires - XP8's, or XP10's are NOT too much for street tires. Stay on street tires for at least your first 6-8 track events, in the end you will be smoother on track, and a better driver. R-comps mask too many mistakes, give no warning when they start to slide, and they are much tougher to recover a slide than with street tires as a track n00b - so instead of sliding around, you'll be in a spin.

6spdKEG

It's not like I wont try my street tires with the Xp8s and Xp10s. If everything goes well I will probably keep the street tires on.. .

I actually wasn't the one saying it was a bad idea in the first place. It was many other people with lots of experience.

Stinkycheezmonky

What we were saying was change your brake pads to a more street-oriented one, not change the tires to a more race-oriented one. Take a step down rather than up.

And please, for your sake, stick with an intructor. How much experience do you have exactly? Did you race karts or Legends as a kid or something, or is this your VERY first venture? There is so much to be learned that can't be garnered from just lapping by yourself. If you really want to improve yourself as a driver, you need to change some of your thinking around.

6spdKEG

point taken.

its pretty much manditory that I have an instructor with me untill I pass out of group 3. I'm only in Group 2.

early experience karting for a year with the SAE formula team at ISU. what a ride
http://www.sae.stuorg.iastate.edu/formula/

Some experience in Virginia autocrossing my MR2 turbo. Never competitioned

spock_rocker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6spdKEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My skill is way above par for a track noob.</TD></TR></TABLE>

wow... i love comments like these!!

6spdKEG

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spock_rocker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

wow... i love comments like these!! </TD></TR></TABLE>

wow... I love comments like these!!

Reid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6spdKEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wow... I love comments like these!!</TD></TR></TABLE>

He means if you really want to become a better driver, you have to learn to leave your ego at home before you get to the track.

You're the worst type of novice track driver that there is. You're a guy with a fast car, who assumes he has talent because he can probably pass most of the other novices.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6spdKEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think the best idea is to have enough brake and tire to be safe for the speed and handeling ability of your car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, the best idea for track novices is to leave the thinking up to those that have done this for far longer than them. They've seen the people come and go over the years with the same attitude as you.

Personally, I've seen many people who kept throwing parts at their car to make the lap times drop, and all the while they're not even close to wringing 100% out of the car. It's completely up to you if you want to be a fast driver or not. Anyone can have a fast car.

roppetty

i use fuzion zri tires (summer street tires) and xp8s and i had a blast when i went to my first hpde. i was kind of concerned about the braking, being that it was the stock hf hydraulics (read: tiny). i almost changed to bigger stuff before i went, but after reading on here and whatnot i didnt. damn glad i didnt as well. they overheated a little bit, but im almost positive it was me just being new and too cautious with the braking.

my main instructor didnt really tell me a whole lot, he kept saying i was doing good and everything unless i obviously messed up (went in too hot for a couple of them, broke while turning and spun, etc stuff that was obvious to me when it happened). i learned more from an instructor that jumped in my car when my main one hadnt showed up when they let the cars out. he was a SM driver and really pushed me a lot. told me not to brake where i had previously been braking, told me not to downshift where i had previously been downshifting, etc. i probably shaved several seconds just that one run with him.

anyway, point being i would listen to these guys. stick with track pads, fluid, and street tires. when they say it's easier to recover from mistakes, they're not lying. they also didnt wear nearly as much as i thought they would...granted, i'm in a 1800 lbs car with 130hp