Dilbones

gracias mí amigo

off season i have some plans assuming my bonus is enough to cover some cost and i can sell this thing:

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

great job !

dc2gypsy

Hi all! By way of introduction - this is my first ever post on H-T - I don't currently own one, but am strongly considering picking up an Integra for track day duty and wondering if I can do it on a limited budget.
I used to have a well setup STS Miata that I raced in auto-x and did a few track days with several years ago. Then I sold the car and did a couple seasons of karting. Then the kart went and I was busy with motorcycles (street, dirt and track). Now that the moto itch has been sufficiently scratched, I'm considering getting back into the 4 wheel performance driving. As much as I value auto-x for skill development, I'm not too excited to stand around in the parking lot all day anymore for a few minutes of driving (no offence to fellow auto-xers). So just looking into lapping/track days/hpdes. No wheel-to-wheel racing.

Why Integra? Ha! You guys tell me I have a few personal reasons:
-As great as Miatas are, I want a hardtop platform this time. Except for EG/EK Civics, I can't think of anything else that would fit the bill in this price/performance-weight range. Any suggestions?
-Never owned a Honda and was always curious about them.
-RWD > FWD, sure, but it takes a certain amount of finesse and skill to drive FWD fast, too, so I don't think enjoyment would be lacking.

With that said, I have a few questions about "common" track setups on DA/DC Integras. For context, the car would not be a DD, but would not be a trailer queen either. Plan is to drive to/from (I hope!) the track with the track wheels/tools inside the car. Not keen on pulling a trailer with stuff. Not planning to cage it in the near term, though interior will likely be mostly stripped out. Questions:
Powertrain:
-I'm not a huge power guy, so I will probably pick up a LS engine car (and add basic bolt-ons). Maybe upgrade to LS-VTEC down the road...is that a reasonable approach, or am I better off looking for a GSR straight off the bat? With a stock B18B1, how much difference does the LSD make on the track?
Suspension:
-Koni sport (off the shelf)+GC a good choice? Anything comparable in the $1K price range? How high of a spring rate can those reliably tolerate? The 600lb/in number gets thrown around often. Assuming street tires (e.g. RE71), not r-comps or slicks, would 500#/550# F/R rates be adequate, or too pushy? How much of a spring rate differential is needed front-rear for good rotation with a large rear sway bar (ITR, or ?)?
-How much drop do folks normally run? And with that amount of drop, are the camber kits necessary to get desirable amount of camber front and rear? I've read -2.75deg/-1.75deg F/R...does that sound reasonable, or too aggressive? For the front, are the camber kits with sliding ball joints on the UCA fairly reliable to hold the settings? Anything to avoid/look out for?
-Since whatever car I get will likely have worn bushings, I'd replace them with polyurethane ones. Good idea, or stay with OEM rubber?
-Any other suspension elements that are must haves? Rear subframe brace?
Brakes:
--How is the brake balance from the factory, and what pad combinations do people commonly run on the track for stock sized rotors?
--Is the ABS any good, or usually removed to save weight? (AC and P/S would go for sure)
Wheels-tires
--As mentioned, I'm planning to use "street" tires. Currently, Bridgestone RE71 come in 205 width. I'd prefer to use them on a 15x7.5" wheel. But with the aforementioned camber settings and a healthy drop, will the unrolled fenders clear such a wheel? Or is this a game of wheel offsets? Broadly speaking, how wide of a wheel does reliably fit? 7"? Guessing 8" would start to see problems?

I'd appreciate any information on the above, and hope to join the Honda club soon (that is, unless you guys dissuade me ).

TunerN00b

12 years of daily driving, 130k miles, 4 years of ST class auto-x, and a dozen track days, my 2000 GSR was an awesome car for just doing (nearly) everything.

LSD is more beneficial for auto-x than track, but something to consider later once you've gotten everything else dialed in, or if increasing power levels
On B18B vs B18C, while the B18B is still going to feel powerful enough compared to a Miata, the GSR gearing paired with the engine is just awesome on track
Koni Sports, GC sleeves, 500/500 was great for me. I did have 600/550 springs I never got around to installing. Wanted to go stiffer mostly to allow lower ride height on the street.
Skip most camber kits, read https://honda-tech.com/forums/suspen...-kits-2614449/
That said, even -4° wasn't too much front camber for the softish 500 front rate I was running when I was trying to make do with SPC sliding arms in the front. Probably hurt braking though. I also had dented shock towers from the reduced clearance. Bending the knuckles and running stock UCAs was significantly better overall
Avoid polyurethane for the TA bushings, probably avoid it altogether really
Rear subframe brace if going with large rear swaybar, which you should be
Brakes are perfectly adequate stock unless you go for big power levels. Fresh high temp fluid, Hawk HPS pads (and you can go much better if desired but mine was also a daily) and no issues doing 45 minute session at Willow Springs in 105° weather
ABS is fine to prevent flat spotting tires, isn't intrusive like some more modern systems, easier to deal with with braided steel lines (less peal thump)
I only tried 15x7 and 16x7, though 215/45-16s on a +35 wheel fit with untouched fenders front and rear without issue, even while slammed (the biggest issue of threaded sleeves is that they let you go way too low, and we all decide to try at least once)

An Integra can fit 4 wheels with mounted tires in the trunk with the back seat in place if you pull the spare for going to/from the track. You can even fit 8 with the seat folded and 1 riding shotgun.

I'd consider a Miata first if you don't need a rear seat, just because RWD and the super easy build formula of "just build a spec Miata". FWD doesn't prevent fun, it just kills front tires a bit faster.
I'm brand agnostic and there's a Focus ST sitting in my driveway now, so you're going to get different answers from fanboys (nothing wrong with that either), but an Integra is never a bad choice.

dc2gypsy

Thank you for the detailed response and an honest perspective.
On the spring rates - equal or stiffer fronts do not result in too much understeer when paired with a large rear sway bar?
Regarding camber - sorry if this is an idiotic question - how do you adjust it without a camber kit on an Integra? Miatas use eccentric bolt heads on the control arm inner mounts. Is there something similar on Hondas?

Miata is probably a more logical choice for a dedicated track car, but they are starting to get expensive around here (even the beat up beaters), and I'm still not keen on the soft top (I did run a rollbar on mine for a while and it stiffens the chassis quite a bit...but you can fit even less then inside the car). That said, I don't know what would fare better in a rollover - a Miata with a bar or an Integra/Civic without. Seems like A-pillars can easily get crushed on both.

TunerN00b

The motion ratio is different front to rear, and the vehicle is front heavy. Equal spring rates is already rear biased. Start as conservative as you feel the need to, trial and error to fine tune as needed, used springs are cheap enough.

There is no adjustment available without an aftermarket kit. The issue is that everything commonly available for the front significantly reduces the available suspension travel, which is rather lacking to begin with.

Due to this, I bent the knuckles for more negative camber and put the stock UCAs back on. Car sat with -2.4° at factory ride height afterward.

​​​​​​​
Stock, the Integra is obviously going to be better for a rollover. With some form of aftermarket reinforcement (bar, cage, etc...), no one is going to be able to answer that because it will come down to who built it, how it is built, and how it is installed (too many variables here). I think most cars derive most of their rollover strength from the B pillars, not the A though.

Matt_EH3

I believe that the Integra is a good choice if you want to keep the budget low. Keep in mind that these are now pretty old cars, so remember that some money will need to be invested in making sure that all the suspension/direction rubbers are not worn out. Changing most if not all bushings is normally the first step everyone has to take.

Now for upgrades (caveat: this is for your situation, where you are starting off, but have some experience):

For camber setting and ride height, what you can do to start off with is simply eyeball the height (keeping in mind that some travel needs to remain; i.e. do not slam the car), adjust toe and work with whatever camber the car comes at at your set height. I know you have lots past of experience on different platforms, but you will probably not get much use out of camber adjustment at first. Save the money, run more events (you know what they say about seat time) BTW, some adjustable UCAs come with an adjustment from underneath that does not limit wheel travel. Personal experience: I ran 5 years with an EH Civic without camber adjustment and was able to run pretty well... I had about 8 years track experience when I started with the Civic.

Koni/GCs are definitely a good upgrade as these cars came out way too soft from the factory (and the Koni/GC setup is a proven setup that is not too expensive). I personally ran 450F/550R up until the overhaul I did this year. You may want to search this forum on sway bar setups, as there have been many debates. I have since switched to a way different setup, but that came out more costly than a basic Koni/GC setup.

As for the powertrain, my recommendation would be to forget about LS VTEC setups. It takes way more money invested to have a reliable one than if you swap in a GSR or Type-R engine directly. Get an LSD transmission.

For brakes, HP+ pads all around, steel braided lines, good fluid and OEM blank rotors will be perfect to start off. The Integra came out with a potent brake setup from the factory. Of course, you can change for better later on. You can look at the 11 inch upgrade in the suspension & brakes forum but once again, if you are starting off, you may not need this.

For wheels and tires, I have had different results that what people here state they got away with, so I will refrain from commenting. It is useful to install ARP extended studs and have a few spacers lying around to play with the offsets.

dc2gypsy

Thanks, TunerN00b and Matt EH3! Still looking for the right car, but all this info is invaluable to help me assess what I want to spend on the car itself and what to look for in one.
@Matt EH3 - for sure I'm planning to set aside some money to refresh the car - basic engine maintenance, mounts and the suspension bushings. Would you agree with TunerN00b that the OEM rubber is better than polyurethane? Why or why not?

S2k@9K

iTrader: (3)

Depends on where it is used...The RTAB and Compliance bushings need to flex is why poly is not recommended there. I don't think the lower shock bushing is a good spot either, because it can egg shape the hole from what I've heard. Places like: upper arms, sway bars, toe/camber arms, shifter, steering rack would be ok to use poly. Also, you won't be able to buy seperate oem bushings for the front lower arms (aside from the compliance) but, hardrace and I'm sure some other companies has these bushings.

Matt_EH3

I personally went with OEM rubber. It is a bit more expensive than the hardrace kit, but I ended up doing small pieces at a time, as some of them were ok when I got the car. Poly bushings have never worked well for me in the past, so I stay away from them. Ovalized centre hole, cracking prematurely with race tires, etc.

dc2gypsy

Got it, makes sense!

This is going a little off the original topic, but what are your thoughts on EG/EK civic as an alternative to a DA/DC integra? Specifically, the D16Y8 engined Civic (coupe, not hatch, as the former are considerably cheaper) vs. B18B1 in the Integra (assume 1992+ for DA).
Both would be gutted similarly, so I'm guessing the Civic would still retain some weight advantage...I'm just not sure how much. Stock for stock, it would be down 13hp on the Integra and it lacks rear disc brakes. Trying to swap in the rear discs from an Integra would likely erode any cost savings that there may be from buying a Civic. Does the Civic coupe/4dr have a chassis stiffness advantage over the DC2 due to them being a 3-box design? I know the 4dr Civic has a slightly longer wheelbase, but with FWD, I reckon shorter/more maneuverable is better, unless you'll be doing 140+ mph regularly.
Am I on the right train of thought here? Missing something? I keep going over this comparison and the Integra always wins in terms of "stuff being there already".

S2k@9K

iTrader: (3)

You are correct in your thinking. The Integra will be the best "out of the box" chassis to go with. If you plan to build the car anyways, then any extra chassis rigidity the coupe/4-door has can be negated with stiffer springs/rollbar etc...Same with the wheelbase, longer may be better on some courses/turns and vice versa. It really comes down to personal preference, if you want "out of the box" go with the DC Integra. If you are going to be switching a bunch of stuff out down the road, go with whatever body style you like the most., do basic maintenance and go from there.

dc2gypsy

Matt_EH3

If I were to start from scratch, I would go with an Integra as well. Keep in mind that the 92-95 Civic unibody is basically the same as an Integra from the driver forward, and all parts are interchangeable. Most Civics you see at the track probably have more Integra parts than Civic parts.

S2k@9K

iTrader: (3)

To further confuse you....I know you were looking for an LS equipped car, but, you will appreciate having a non-sunroof model down the road. Unless you don't care if it's pretty, then you can remove it and rivet a sheet of aluminum over the hole.

dc2gypsy

Oh, I'd love to find an RS on the cheap, but most of the ones for sale are indeed LS-spec. I plan to remove everything that has to do with the sunroof and cover the hole with an aluminum sheet. I doubt that the starter car will be cosmetically pretty, so what's another patch on the roof?

dc2gypsy

Ha! Good point!

sjg88

would you guys recommend an oil pressure or oil temperature gauge for a street / track car?

Dilbones

you have the right vision in mind for a beginner hpde car.

check out my build thread. my car is now stripped with a roll bar and is being swapped and i plan on caging it, but when i first built it, it was a lot like what you're asking about.

it'll give you some ideas on how to be fast in a "slower" chassis-- if you're an LS integra, you're a power guy in my eyes

https://honda-tech.com/forums/road-r...build-3268207/

dc2_tracktoy

Great build and thread. Been reading this whole thread over the past few days at work during my slow times. Car looks like a blast to drive!

Matt_EH3

Why did this thread get merged into Dilbones's build thread (and renamed it to boot)?

Mods, what are you doing?

Dilbones

you want me to delete my link? Thought it contributed to the dialogue but whatever.

S2k@9K

iTrader: (3)

Your link is no longer available. This thread is now yours + the recent one merged.

Dilbones

Wtf? Can someone undo this?

prjct92eh2

i was wondering wtf was going on here