1net

Please bare with me for this explanation,
I'm driving an 91 ED6, ots konis, + coilover kit (450/350)
when I first put the coils on, I put them on zero preload even though I knew the car would stand super high. Driving like that yelded a reasonable ride and quite predictable handling but ofcource being at atound zero camber was awful.
I lowered the car with small increments and from the first lowering attempt I noticed that the car started to bite the corners much better, but had a "wobly" sensation just as i apprached the limits of the car. This strange feeling is still there now and I'm as low as i can right now front and back( 3deg front camber, 2.5deg rear camber). When I lift the car, the springs have about 1.5 - 2 inches of free play.

I was hoping that the sway bars (18mm front, 15mm rear) would prevent the uloaded side from fully uloading the spring and I'm pretty sure that's the case, but why would I get the sensation of an unstable car only when I get the springs loose?
Don't get me wrong, the car is still well banaced and quite predictable, there is just a minor hesitation of the car as I enter the higher slip angle zone. Would you account that to the springs becoming loose or should i be looking into something else?

p.s. bushings are Energy Syspension all around + sway bar bushings. The big LCA bushings are not in top notch condition, but are not that bad either. I've driven the car with worse LCA bushings and it didn't feel like that. I'll change them for new ones soon, but I don't thing that would help.
thanks in advance.

PIC Performance

What bumpstops are you using?

garados

iTrader: (3)

did you get it completely aligned after lowering it? Did you reset the front toe at least? If not, I'd start there. If so, I doubt the springs are unseating. What kind of tires are you using?

1net

the car is fully aligned at
front toe: 1.6mm toe-in
rear toe: 1.2mm toe-in
front camer: -3
rear camber: -2

stock honda rear bump stops, no front stops.
I don't think I'm bottoming the suspension even with the bumpy roads here.

Small update, did some back road spirited driving just now and the car feels great over bumps, jumps, sand, tarmack... so this "issue" is a small quirk, not a major stability problem.

PIC Performance

I would highly suggest running bumpstops in front, and if you are using stock ones, you will want to trim them down to make sure you are hitting them under what would otherwise be normal amounts of compression.

1net

point taken, but that surely is NOT the case since this issue has been haunting me high and low. It was not present only when the springs had just minor preload (zero preload by hand)

guys, I'd be happy if anyone says "I've driven with loose springs and never had a problem"... then I could just go looking into bushing issues like old rear LCA big bushings or the need to install that bushing so that it has no tension when the car is lowered.

thanks for the input guys.

mc-integra111

If you are worried the springs might be unseating, get tender springs. They are extremely soft rate springs that just keep the main spring seated and are fully compressed when loaded. I would think someone would make them for Koni's.

Chris F

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1net &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"I've driven with loose springs and never had a problem"</TD></TR></TABLE>

I can say that. If I jack one side of my car, the front tire will droop 3 inches past where the spring gave up. The front will practically never unload while driving, unless you're catching air while cresting a hill. If you're raising the inside front while driving, you need to reconsider your rear roll stiffness (IMO)

-Chris

Kusai.Nihonjin.Desu

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I can say that. If I jack one side of my car, the front tire will droop 3 inches past where the spring gave up. The front will practically never unload while driving, unless you're catching air while cresting a hill. If you're raising the inside front while driving, you need to reconsider your rear roll stiffness (IMO)

-Chris</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've had numerous cars and set ups with this characteristic. I don't think the 'loose spring' is your problem.

D-SOHC 05

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kusai.Nihonjin.Desu &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I've had numerous cars and set ups with this characteristic. I don't think the 'loose spring' is your problem. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Same here. When I would jack up my CRX the springs would have some free play but it never caused any issues are far as I was concerned.

Tyson

why do you have the fronts toed in at all?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1net &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the car is fully aligned at
front toe: 1.6mm toe-in
rear toe: 1.2mm toe-in
front camer: -3
rear camber: -2

</TD></TR></TABLE>

btw, i concur with eeryone else, theres no issue with the springs.

looks elsewhere for slop. or maybe even the ES swaybar bushings. make sure theyre arent on so tight the swaybar is binding, it should be able to freely rotate by hand when both endlinks are disconnected.

CRX Lee

I too wonder why al the toe-in. I prefer zero rear and maybe 1/16th total toe out front but both ends toed in to me sounds like scrubbing and numbng the feel.

As for the springs dropping loose at droop (no preload), this is only a problem at droop so it shouldn't be an issue as long as your wheels stay on the ground. I have had "loose springs" on the street and track a number of times with no issues. The only person whom I know reported actually bouncing up off his springs was a guy at a driver's school and very high spring rates using very short springs. Even then I still question several other things about his car.

I do have tender springs and regular racing springs on my racecar right now.

Johnny Mac

I am a big proponent of using helper springs to keep the springs in their place (perches) although a loose spring is usually not a big problem. Most companies making coil over kits (Koni, GC, Skunk2, ect.) have chamfers on the perch components where the spring fits over. Thus, when the spring becomes loose either from jacking up the car or while out on the track, the spring finds its way back onto the perch without too much difficulty.

bsclywilly

You descrive the handling as unpredictable and unstable but it can be difficult to understand what you mean by that. I would interpret it as unstable being over steer and unpredictable as not having much feedback at the limit of adhesion. Is that accurate?

Assuming that is what you are describing, it is not likely that the inside rear spring (considering the spring rates and roll rates you are running) is being unloaded completely. Running too low of a spring stiffness in the rear relative to the roll bar would contribute to a similar sensation but the rates you're using don't suggest that. Even though when you jack the car up and the inside rear spring is loose does not mean that under actual corning situations that would be the case since the cornering forces would result in much greater vertical loads than simply the static test you describe.

Instead of going in to further detail, may I ask what tires, size and pressure you're using? When you say that there is a wobly sensation and that camber had a great affect on the 'bite' I start to think that the tires stiffness is very low compared to the rates you're running. I find the same sensation when I run street tires (compared to a race/r-comp radial) on a very stiffly sprung vehicle since the tire deflection becomes a much greater factor and since there is much less damping in the tire compared to the shock (about 10x less), there is usally a sense that the tires are squirming much more. Try increasing the rear pressures and see how that affects the stability and predictability. My other suggestion would be to check the alignment again. Even a 'kick the tires' test would be useful to make sure everything is working the way it should, no binding, excess play (compliance), and visual inspection of all the components especially the toe links and camber bushings, dampers.

Crazydave

I have encountered one problem with loose spings in the rear. but it's not a handling issue.

I have the G/Cs...
and recently when unloading, and the rubber thingys that go between the spring and the tophat got a little out of place, and jacked up the rubber and the spring wouldn't sit properly.. and the rubber was then holding the spring to the top of the hat, instead of letting gravity take it down so for that whole session I kept hearing the spring *thud* around

Tyson

most ppl say that extended top hats are useless in the rear because the shock wont bottom out, but they are useful for taking up the slop and reducing droop. so not a bad thing at all.