mugencivic94

i would not recomend this due to the heavy film build you will recieve when you are done not to mention the added risk of solvent pop


Modified by mugencivic94 at 4:32 PM 6/30/2008

blue2000em1

Are you serious,You're still with this fascination that pigment are made by this manufacture and sent out .

So and your point????I spoken to Craig fraser numerous times myself you're aware he has his own website.

You go do that,And why you're at it ask him how Basf is treating him,and ask him, about the new mix of tints,pigments colors he is producing himself for the carizzma line.

As for Craig fraser and Brian lynch ask them both on Craig frasers personal site he's Created.


[quote=DC2.2_GSR]sorry man (em1), i just won't argue with you. you're obviously getting off on typing aggressively so you can have fun with that. i'm not worried about proving myself to you. i mean, at first i was making sure that this guy got straight forward info, then i see your ignorance and i figured i'd try to make sure noone else took your false information as fact, and now i just don't give a ****. any informed career painter will read this thread and realize who's correct, so F' it..

edit** never mind, i will say this. paint companies all have suppliers. if you are so ignorant to think that every company is high enough on the business food chain to be able to afford R&D of each individual product, then you need to either a.) STFU and don't make comments about things you are uneducated about. or b.) do your research, take business and chemical engineering classes at reputable institutions like some of the rest of us have... and then discuss the ups and downs of the automotive coatings industry like an adult. or c.) just plain STFU.

here's exactly what deviant is talking about.

"Flex Products in Santa Rosa, CA, a JDS Uniphase company, is a wholly owned subsidiary of Optical Coating Laboratory, Inc. and manufactures ALL of the Chromaflair (color-shifting) pigment used in the following paint lines:

BASF - "Extreme Colors"
Dupont Refinish - "ChromaLusion"
Glasurit GmbH - "Fantasy Colors"
Kansai Paint - "Spectroshine"
Nippon Paint - "Maziora"
NOF Corp - "Illusion Colors"
PPG - "Harlequin Color"
Resene Santano - "Kaleidoscope"
Sherwin Williams - "MultiTones"
Standox - "Exclusive Line"
Valspar/House of Kolor - "Kameleon Kolors"

Something else to make you look like an idiot, here's Sherwin's basecoat mix for 32oz. of R81, Honda Milano Red, compared to single stage mix. it should be clear now that single stage IS NOT clear coat with colorants in it.

not only is single stage more expensive, but it is mixed with nearly the same colorants, with the only difference being the hardeners and activators.

BASECOAT
Number Color Name Cumulative Non-Cumulative Cost
U7209....CLEAR BINDER......18.6.............18.6...........$1.58
U7031....UHS BRT RED........289.5...........270.9.........$49.25
U7139....HS VIOLET............445.2...........155.7..........$ 27.82
U7282....UHS BC WHITE......448.9 ............3.7...........$0.20
U7218....HS BLACK.............449.2.............0.3........... $0.02
BCS605..STD STABILIZE.....847.1...........397.9..........$8.52
UH904....U7 SPEED HARD....878.1............31.0...........$2.35
.................................................. ..............Total : $89.74

SINGLE STAGE

Number Color Name Cumulative Non-Cumulative Cost
U7400.....ULT 2K MIX CL...166.4..........166.4..........$6.67
U7031.....UHS BRT RED....380.8..........214.4.........$38.98
U7139.....HS VIOLET........544.0...........163.2........$29.17
U7303 .... RAPID CURE....609.7...........65.7..........$6.53
U7110......S WHITE..........614.1...........4.4............$0.1 8
US3...ULTRASOLV #3........747.8..........133.7.........$2.19
UH80..LOW VOC HARD.....918.5..........170.7........$15.95
.................................................. .............Total : $99.67

man, Sherwin Williams sure is cheap! i mean, look at how they don't have enough colorants!

My false information,You don't even know what your talking about.You say Single stage was outdated but yet you didn't know that some cars still come factory with single stage.I hope another career painter reads this so they do understand what I am talking about.

You're still with this fascination that pigments and tints are made with this one manufacture then spreaded out to individual companies.You're aware that in Germany Basf is a multi billion dollar company that "produce there own pigments,tints WTF will they just be like oh hey lets by some pigments from this manufacture.No incorrect they produde there own pigment,tints to there specs to produce the closest color match as possible for themselves and this is coming for a Basf rep that has deal with this for 8 years that I've spoke to yesterday.Please DC2.2_GSR take A.)a.) STFU and don't make comments about things you are uneducated about.

SINGLE STAGE

Number Color Name Cumulative Non-Cumulative Cost
U7400.....ULT 2K MIX CL...166.4..........166.4..........$6.67
U7031.....UHS BRT RED....380.8..........214.4.........$38.98
U7139.....HS VIOLET........544.0...........163.2........$29.17
U7303 .... RAPID CURE....609.7...........65.7..........$6.53
U7110......S WHITE..........614.1...........4.4............$0.1 8
US3...ULTRASOLV #3........747.8..........133.7.........$2.19
UH80..LOW VOC HARD.....918.5..........170.7........$15.95
.................................................. .............Total : $99.67

Damn U7400.....ULT 2K MIX CL...166.4..........166.4..........$6.67

You're aware that's a clear???

"Single Stage Paint"

Single stage paint is pigmented paint with the protective enamels of a “clear coat” mixed right into it. That means there is no layer on top of the pigmented paint, but it is still protected as if it was covered by a clear coat.

Courtesy of http://gtaindetail.com/clearcoat/

I shouldn't argue with you guys no more DC2.2_GSR you're a real idiot you don't even know the definition of Single stage.As for the Flex Products in Santa Rosa, CA, a JDS Uniphase company, I'am contacting Basf tommorow on more info on this one.DC2.2_GSR " God do I even have to show you the more tints Basf or any other company has over sherwin williams aswell???."


Modified by blue2000em1 at 9:52 PM 6/30/2008

DDEVIANT1

Craig Fraser has his own website??? Um well no he has 2 just so you know one is his personal art site and one is his custom paint forum, both of which I frequent. And if I wanted to ask him I would call him. But speaking of this are you on the paint forum, we could both discuss it there if you so wish. And like I said, if I am wrong in any way shape or form I am a grown *** man and have no problem admitting that. And please do not quote a website from a car detailer about what single stage and base clear is, as it is obviously very simplified for the general masses and misses many many key points and a lot of information is deleted in this simplification.

And do you seriously think Mr Foose makes his own pigments, I would be hard pressed to say that he does, what I will say is that he got toegether with the color and chemical engineers and mixed their bases together to get some signature colors. And by their bases I mean their bases, not pigments they make but the bases that most any bodyshop or paint supplier has in stock.

And as for you pointing out in the above formula what is a clear, you are right, it is a base mixing clear binder, that is used to carry the pigments. They also use mixing clears in varying amounts in BC/CC in fact most silvers in BC take forever to achieve hiding due to the fact that there is a lot of clear in them, pointing out that there is clear in the single stage does not prove nor disprove you point, or anyones point for that matter. and on that point, what brand new factory car comes from the dealer with single stage paint? and i expect you will quote me, highlight this question and give me a reasonable answer.

I do appreciate that you can google who the parent and subsidiary companies that are involved with flex products are though. I mean seriously, we obviously have come across different information over the time that we have been painting, you have your beliefs on the matter and I have mine as DC2.2 has his. We could banter forever about this, but in all reality I'm not going to convince you and you are not going to convince me any different so lets just let this one go on all sides. ANd if you really think I should give up my hobby as stated before, maybe I just will do that, I mean I have already gotten a best graphics trophy for a paint job that was up against a Santini paint job...It is obvious that my time painting is long since passed.

blue2000em1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DDEVIANT1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Craig Fraser has his own website??? Um well no he has 2 just so you know one is his personal art site and one is his custom paint forum, both of which I frequent. And if I wanted to ask him I would call him. But speaking of this are you on the paint forum, we could both discuss it there if you so wish. And like I said, if I am wrong in any way shape or form I am a grown *** man and have no problem admitting that. And please do not quote a website from a car detailer about what single stage and base clear is, as it is obviously very simplified for the general masses and misses many many key points and a lot of information is deleted in this simplification.

And do you seriously think Mr Foose makes his own pigments, I would be hard pressed to say that he does, what I will say is that he got toegether with the color and chemical engineers and mixed their bases together to get some signature colors. And by their bases I mean their bases, not pigments they make but the bases that most any bodyshop or paint supplier has in stock.

And as for you pointing out in the above formula what is a clear, you are right, it is a base mixing clear binder, that is used to carry the pigments. They also use mixing clears in varying amounts in BC/CC in fact most silvers in BC take forever to achieve hiding due to the fact that there is a lot of clear in them, pointing out that there is clear in the single stage does not prove nor disprove you point, or anyones point for that matter. and on that point, what brand new factory car comes from the dealer with single stage paint? and i expect you will quote me, highlight this question and give me a reasonable answer.

I do appreciate that you can google who the parent and subsidiary companies that are involved with flex products are though. I mean seriously, we obviously have come across different information over the time that we have been painting, you have your beliefs on the matter and I have mine as DC2.2 has his. We could banter forever about this, but in all reality I'm not going to convince you and you are not going to convince me any different so lets just let this one go on all sides. ANd if you really think I should give up my hobby as stated before, maybe I just will do that, I mean I have already gotten a best graphics trophy for a paint job that was up against a Santini paint job...It is obvious that my time painting is long since passed.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

No,I'am not a current member there.However I do zip on there everyday and read alot of interesting thing that Mr.Craig Fraisers has to say and others.On top I do apoligize for the rude jesters I was implying to you.You know your **** truthfully,and please don't take it by the heart with you trying to quit your hobby that's dumb.Your correct We do have different believes.Sorry again and goodnight sincere,Blue2000em1.

powerflow

^^^Dude you once told someone to sand primer w/ 80 grit, you are no expert. Just because someone has a different opinion doesn't always make them flat out wrong, especially talking about paint/body.

If I had a customer that wanted SS w/ clear topcoat, I would definitly try to sway them the other way.

Pockets

I really wouldn't see a point of clearing over single stage on a wet-on-wet application. however if you've ever seen a single stage paintjob sanded and recleared, it yields the same 'deep' effect as any bc/cc spray. i just flipped through a spies hecker product guide and there's no mention of our 257 series (single stage) in the product substrates of any clearcoat in the line. i honestly don't think this would cause horrific product failure, such as seperation of the two topcoats, but i've never tried this nor would want to (wet on wet of course).

Pac-Man_G

Hello Guys just thought i'd put my 2 cents in and probably get banned.
i just started work at Albert Kemperle and my thoughts are Is Single stage cheap? YES!!! Can you clear over it? YES!! Do cheaper paint have less variances? YES!!! do Billion dollar companies have an R&D Paint Laboratory? YES!!! Do cheap clears have a yellow tint? YES!! Is Sherman Williams inexpensive? yes. why? because they don't advertise or have a vase number of sells reps. Do Cars come with single stage from factory? YES!!! what it comes down to is what kind of money you got to spend. I’ve taken orders for big dealers that uses diamont base and limco 4100 clear. its cheap and effective end of story
The point of the thread is to help. NOT TO BASH!!
JOE i love you!!!.....NO HOMO

blue2000em1

If I told you once to use 80 I really meant 180 grit.As for the expert comment who are you to say what I do know, and don't know.Like you're any better than me.And about the ss/cc comment,well you just have to read this whole thread because I'am not explaining this subject again and causing a debate.It's just so foolish to think that
it's not good to clear on top of single stage.Anyway here some pictures of a couple cars I done with single stage as promised(cell phone picture quality sorry).


Here's a picture of the single stage product.



I spy Basf limco clear.



Hmmmm,It says here It can be used for limco 4 bc/cc and limco supreme ss/cc. Sorry DC2.2_GSR.



A picture of the Saturn just finished in the booth.(only picture I have sorry)



My buddy Malcoms hatch under primer before I threw sealer on the car.



Picture of it selaed.



A picture of it painted.



Another angle.



And another.



And last angle.



Like I said people blow it out of proportion.It's definetly not bad.

I tried telling them man but they don't listen dude.It's w/e they can be hard headed and learn the difficult way.DC2.2_GSR You're the one who needs to gtfo this industry and learn before you give information.

Hahahahahahahahaha

mztykal

This is by far the dumbest argument ever.

Clearing over single stage is a personal preference thing. You can spray clear over it and it'll be fine, but for almost the same price you can do a Omni or Nason bc/cc job.

The buildup won't be as thick and it'll resist rock chipping because of the thinner film buildup.

BUT my preference is to only shoot bc/cc. I only do it. If someone requests single stage I send em to Maaco.

I'm better than that.

DDEVIANT1

Yes of course they have R&D lab's neither Myself nor 2.2 said they don't, it was just simply stated that a lot of the base pigments used by modern paint manufacturers are bought from other chemical companies, they still have to be compined into each paint manufactureers own carriers, solvents and additives.

And so do many, many expensive clears, but not only yellow, but they can be cloudy, have tiny particulate matter smaller than the eye can see that can cause poor DOI and anomilies in the finished product. Even my HOK UC35 is not 100% clear.

Can you please tell me which cars in this day and age still come from the factory with single stage paints. I find this hard to believe, and only for this reason. Most if not all car manufacturers are and already have switched over to waterbourne paint systems and that would make it impossible for them to be single stage, as there are not any single stage waterbourne systems on the market to either wholesale or retail at least to my knowledge.


It does not come down to what those type of painters GOT to spend so you put it, it comes down to what they WANT to spend, their bottom lines get fatter by using slightly cheaper materials. It is cheap yes, but effective, well sure if you just want to make money, if you want to do top quality work then it is not really that effective to get good base and cheap clear.

I am not here to bash anyone either, hell I have painted SS/BC before, but I no linger believe it is either taht much cheaper, or any more effective, nor the correct way to get the best product. I have done PPG concept base and then the owner wanted graphics on his bike, So I rebased it with the concept single stage, cleared it with concept clear, and then re scuffed that to do the graphics with DBC base as the colours he wanted were not available in SS, then receleared again with concept clear.

But if you are going to clear it, how much cheaper than BC/CC is it, is it really worth it when you can just do BC/CC and call it a day?

Pac-Man_G

DD come on we are talking about a single stage clean coat job... not a $2,000 HOK Candy job. of course its about the money. it does matter how you spend it, you are 100% correct. for the price single stage and clear you could go bc/cc. i don't doubt you there especially if your going metallic, I'd much rather go bc/cc [QUOTE=DDEVIANT1]
Yes of course they have R&D lab's neither Myself nor 2.2 said they don't, it was just simply stated that a lot of the base pigments used by modern paint manufacturers are bought from other chemical companies, they still have to be compined into each paint manufactureers own carriers, solvents and additives.

100% correct. in fact i heard the all the white pigments in the world is owned by dupont,RM ownes Red, Black is owned PPG "i think". but the rest are synthetically made at other companies.

[QUOTE=DDEVIANT1]
And so do many, many expensive clears, but not only yellow, but they can be cloudy, have tiny particulate matter smaller than the eye can see that can cause poor DOI and anomilies in the finished product. Even my HOK UC35 is not 100% clear.
uh, i don't know much about HOK i'll be honest. BASF all the way.
and you and tell without a shadow of a doubt the difference between limco and dimont,and diamont and glasurit. my buddy painted his 1967 ford mustang inside and out. and he used limco clear inside and diamont outside its a Night and Day difference, i'll post pictures

Can you please tell me which cars in this day and age still come from the factory with single stage paints. I find this hard to believe, and only for this reason. Most if not all car manufacturers are and already have switched over to waterbourne paint systems and that would make it impossible for them to be single stage, as there are not any single stage waterbourne systems on the market to either wholesale or retail at least to my knowledge.

i don't know. i think that toyota FJ solid yellow is still single stage.


It does not come down to what those type of painters GOT to spend so you put it, it comes down to what they WANT to spend, their bottom lines get fatter by using slightly cheaper materials. It is cheap yes, but effective, well sure if you just want to make money, if you want to do top quality work then it is not really that effective to get good base and cheap clear.
QUOTE]
100% correct again! if you’re gonna to a quality job, use quality paint. Plain and simple. If i had the money GLASURIT ALL DAY!!! but a kit is like $800-$1300 i don't have that kind of money probably like a lot of people. so why not go average too good base so the color matches and or colors richer looking. and use an ok but not the best Clear for half the price? on my own car i used. diamont primer,diamont base, diamont clear. came out just fine,but a stupid move. cause we're talking about a honda that i'll probably have for 4/5years maybe if that long. there is really no need to spray $2,000 worth of HoK,Glasurit,Sikkens all the other high end paints on a $2,000 honda. look if you’re driving a Ferrari then you have Ferrari money and then you get nothing but the best anything put on that Ferrari. plain and simple



Modified by Pac-Man_G at 5:20 PM 7/2/2008