pentaq

Hi,
I'd like to ask if anyone has an experience with damaged main bearings in H23. Why does it happen in this engine model? Does H22 have the same possibilities to destroy these bearing as it shares the engine bottom with H23? Any cures & precautions for that? Any input appreciated. Thanks
pentaq

BoostedH23a1

dont over rev... watch your oil pressure.
i lost 2 mains in my old motor..
be careful if u have alot of hp and u throw it down at high rpm.. thats what i did.

papa_smurf

yea mine went too, i think h23's have an inferior oiling system, just my oppinion.

IloveNewt

i wonder if theres a better way or an upgraded oiling system.

flyrod

I think you can put a h22 oil pump on a h23. I dunno if they are actually different or if anyone has tried it...

BoostedH23a1

same pump

preludesi93-arg

pentaq
can you email me ?
i want to ask a question

preludesi93@ciudad.com.ar

AndyD

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by papa_smurf &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yea mine went too, i think h23's have an inferior oiling system, just my oppinion.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nope. It is just a result of running the car beyond what it was designed for. The bearing will not spin if you don't rev it more than you need to.

The H23 and H22 have different oiling systems based on the respective engine design. H22 was designed to rev more than the H23, hence where the motor actually makes power and it's higher redline. The H23 stops making HP at 5500 rpms. Revving it to redline is where failure occurs.

Honda318dx

You know, I really don't know why the H23s have MUCH more rod/main failures..

Oiling system is the same (actually, no oil squirters = more oil pressure) bearings are the same, revs less. Why does this happen on H23s? More pressure on the bearings? you would think with the same oil system and bearings as an H22, it should be able to rev to the same amount, without a problem....

Sam1am26

Bigger Crank = Bigger Load

PirateMcFred

You can upgrade the oil pump gear with a Prodrive gear, shim the oil bypass spring in the pump to increase pressure, teardrop the oil holes on the crank, polish the crank journals, balance the **** out of the crank, upgrade to ARP main studs to increase clamping force on the caps, and you might be able to run it longer. Otherwise I am not sure why h23's spin bearings or how to prevent it outside of replacing the bearings more often than 125K miles.

pirate

H22Si

like the previous members stated, the h22s and h23 have an inferior oiling system for the mains. they feed from the bottom-up as opposed to the B series top-down oiling. hence the "oil girder" found buttoning-up the bottom end on them.

the H23s themselves were NOT designed to rev high. the small crank journal size for the stroke being a big player as far as failures go. i myself have seen numerous H23 with split cranks. cracked right through the centerline. (actually closer to the #3 cap if memory serves me right.) it's an inherent design flaw. as we all know the h23s counterweights are smaller than those on the h22s. the increased stroke and subsequent increase in the rod journal offset on the h23s combined with the SAME main journal diameter as the h22s spells disaster if your intent is spinning them higher.

you can make them work, i suppose. all that is needed is more money for the right parts (and proper assembly).

my 2cents

satan_srv

H23 Crank = 95mm

too big + not watching the oil enough

SRP

Well to start off. The H22 oiling system has supported well over 600+ WHP with nothing more than internal spring mods (highly recomended). I would never for any reason recomend running a pro drive oil pump gear. Those things have shattered way too often on even the mildest of set ups. You can search on this board and read the horror stories about the pro drive/circuit werx oil pump gears.

THe reason that main bearing failure is more likely to happen with the H23 crank/rods is because of the much higher amounts of torsional vibration caused by the violent snaps of the crank when pulling down the short rod. With the 5.570 rod there really isnt any dwell time at all which makes the up to down stroke transition more of a "whip" as apposed to a roll. This puts a ton of stress on the main cap bolts causing them to give in certain points. This is commonly refered to as crank walk. A good set of main bolts helps out quite a bit.

Another thing I see too many people do with 95+mm strokes is put the block together with out line honing the main journals to ensure straightness. I dont see why anyone would do this especially with the history of main bearing failure. It is almost a guarantee that bearing failure will occur with out of line journals. I would strongly recomend line honing the block and paying close attention to bearing clearances. When you go too tight on clearances its a little less forgiving. I always recomed going a little looser than oem on main clearances which will help the crank spin a little better, less resistance and allows for better oil cushioning on the bearing.

Something you want to do is minimze torsional vibrations. You can do that by running a dampener type pulley. ATI makes them for the B series motors and should be releasing one for the H motors soon. Fluidamper has their H series application set for an end of the year release. I really think this is the missing link for large stroke Hondas. These dampeners will allow you to run the bigger strokes with a lot less too worry about.

Balancing the entire rotating assembley is something that should be a no brainer with a stroker motor. I dont think i need to talk much about that.

The crank itself is strong despite what anyone may say about it. It is a forged crank and can handle all kinds of abuse. You have to think of the fact that when the majority of the H23 cranks do brake people just quickly say "well, the crank sucks" with out even looking into why it failed. What caused the failure? Well, if the main bolts backed out or stretched slighty from one of the caps due to heavy torsional vibrations and causes un even clamping distribution which ultimately brakes the crank is that really the cranks fault? ANy crank would fail under that kind of stress. How about if a H block was put together with a 95mm crank and the main journals were left un touched. No line hone at all, jsut throwing the block together. What if one of those journals was SLIGHTLY out of shape, something that cant really be seen by the eye? After break in a little semi hard driving spins a main bearing, which is something expected but since that precaution was never aknowleged or taken you never knew about it. So when you tear the motor down and see a spun main bearing, a destroyed crank and block. Is it the cranks fault? How about if you run tight clearances rather than going a little looser than OEM specs when there have been many people saying that its a good idea to loosen up a little on a stroker motor that will be seeing some rpm. The bearings spin because of tight unforgiving clearances. Is that the cranks fault? 999 times out of 1000 the actual problem will be overlooked to allow blame to be placed on a particular part. Its easier that way, less work and less to explain.


Modified by SRP at 6:05 PM 11/15/2004

ranta18

bump for more info.

hOndafienD 04

whats the best/cheapest way to increase oil pressure? would a smaller oil filter off the k-series motors do the trick?

PirateMcFred

Smaller oil filter is a bad idea that will cause MORE restriction and lower the pressure to the bearings. The CHEAPEST way to increase pressure is to shim the bypass spring on the oil pump, accessible by removing the oilpan.

Pirate

hOndafienD 04

picture? no idea what your talking about

Rick Solis

I just think people have taken pictures of 1 broken H23 crank that was posted online a while ago and just figured it was the cranks fault. If I remember correctly the crank that snapped was knife edged... Never ever knife edge a stroker crank, especially for a street driven set up... I dont even like it on a full blown drag set up... Some do and they have their reasons but in all honesty you can save weight other ways that wont harm the motor in the end... If anything you want to add weight to it.

Ill say this one more time... THE H23 CRANK IS NOT A WEAK CRANK

SKDRCR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pentaq &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Does H22 have the same possibilities to destroy these bearing as it shares the engine bottom with H23</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, as stated before

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">H23 Crank = 95mm

too big + not watching the oil enough</TD></TR></TABLE>

The h23 bottom end is not built to handle the rpm's
that the h22 is, bottom line.





Modified by SKDRCR at 2:14 AM 11/16/2004

Rick Solis

05 will be a year of new ideas, new thoughts, new ways and new achievements... Just wait!

You guys are going to see some stuff that changes the way you think about the H motors...

ranta18

I hear that. I've got lots of new H22 goodies coming from my friends at DPR, Atomic, Ferria, Calico, and others. 2005 is going to be VERY interesting.