feret

Hi,

My 1992 Civic VX has been having an issue with starting for a few months now and it seems to be getting worse.

The symptoms:

• The CEL hasn't turned on at all (other than briefly when turning the key on).
• Sometimes it starts perfectly normally but not often.
• Most times, I'll turn the key to crank the engine for a few seconds but the engine won't turn over.
• Many times, I'll turn the key to crank the engine for a few seconds and when I let go of the key, the engine is running. I never feel that point where the engine turns over in this case.
• Sometimes I'll hear a short groaning noise while cranking. I haven't been able to isolate from where this is coming.
• I seem to be able to consistently get the engine started by popping the clutch.
• The last time I drove it, there was a big hesitation when starting to accelerate. If I didn't give it a lot of gas before letting up on the clutch, it would stall. Once I start moving at a steady speed (RPM?), there's no hesitation. Also, it seems to idle low and steady (keep in mind the tach isn't working).

First, and this may or may not be related, a few weeks before the starting issue started, my tach stopped working. Every now and then it would twitch but for the most part, the dial doesn't move. I tried swapping out the cluster with one I pulled from a 1995 Civic at a junk yard and while everything else worked, the tach still did not. This seems to rule out the cluster as being an issue.

My initial research led me to the solder contact issue with the main relay. I swapped it out with an exact replacement from a later model Civic after verifying all the solder contacts but that didn't seem to help.

I performed a signal test to the fuel pump (under the rear seat) as per the Honda Shop Manual and that came back normal.

I don't remember what the issue was at the time but about 15 months/4k miles ago, I replaced the distributor with a Richporter TD42 which included a new coil, rotor & cap. I do remember that my research resulted in that this was a good aftermarket replacement. I tested the coil resistance with the following results:

A+ -> B- 1.0-1.2 ohms
A+ -> 2nd winding terminal (spring) 15.86 kohms

Which, according to my research, is normal. I also try swapping in the coil from the old distributor and had similar results along with the same symptoms.

At this point, I'm not sure what to test next but of the air/fuel/fire components, I'm suspecting the following in order:

1. Fuel pump and/or filter (the latter was replaced about 15k mi ago along with the spark plugs/wires & dist cap/rotor)
2. The ignition switch (and related components -- solenoid? The thing under the distributor)

I found a few more things to test while looking things up in the Honda Shop Manual but I thought it best to still post here in case those with more experience than me recognizes something specific from these symptoms.

Thanks for any suggestions!

-Jeff

Former User

Have you replaced the plugs and plug wires?

Have you checked the safety switch at the top of the clutch pedal and the rubber stopper that presses on the switch?

Have you tested the ignition switch?

feret

Hi,

Sorry for the delayed response.

First, to respond to JonJ@HT's questions:

The plugs & wires were replaced less than 15k miles ago with NGK R-8 wires and E3.48 DiamondFire spark plugs. I just pulled all the plugs and though there seemed to be only a little carbon on them, they otherwise looked fine. Regardless, I cleaned them up with a light metal brush before re-installing them.

I haven't checked the safety switch at the clutch pedal yet but then again I would expect the engine wouldn't even crank. If I don't press the clutch, nothing happens when I turn the key.

The ignition switch and other components are next on my todo list. Unfortunately, I don't have the opportunity for large blocks of time to work on it so I can only do relatively little at a time.

What I have done since my last post is I found another fuel pump from a 1995 Civic at a junk yard and used it to replace the existing one. Compared to the good condition of the one I installed, the one I pulled looked like crap. Unfortunately, this didn't seem to resolve the issue(s) but it may have helped a little.

I still had some issues with starting the engine (all of the symptoms mentioned in my first post were still present). While I drove it around my neighborhood as a test, I was able to narrow down the hesitation. It seems to occur at the lower RPM's in at least 1st, 2nd & 3rd gears. For example, if I slow down to about 15-20mph, then shift into 2nd, there's a sort of stuttering for a few seconds as the RPM's rise. When it hits a certain RPM, it then runs smoothly. To me, the stuttering is akin to when you first turn on a house water hose, it sputters a bit while it gets the air out of the line. However, in this case, it's consistent.

I'm not sure this is relevant since the CEL is not on and turns off before starting the car but I jumpered it anyway and it stays solid while jumpered. However, the engine sure sounds like it will run higher than 3k RPM.

I'd be grateful for any other thoughts or suggestions.

Thanks!

-Jeff

Solster

LOL it's the Shitty *** E3 plugs might as well just go get any miss matched plugs fro random cars in a junk yard it will run better.

when i worked for a local auto repair shop i would get 3~4 cars a month with E3 plugs and all of them were there with running odd or Not at all problems. After the 4th car my boss spent 2~3 hours trying to Diagnose I just started checking plugs and replacing All E3 plugs for the correct brand for the car. In fact I had 8 cars on the books one day and all had E3 plugs i replaced the plugs in all 8 and got to go home early as i had ran out of work by noon.

As for the tach it could be a broken tach or the ignition module

CYB-DC2

Not to thread jack but mine almost does the same thing, it's automatic though.

Cold early morning starts, it starts up right away.

After driving it awhile and when I turn it off and leave it for a few hours. It takes like 5 secs to start, just rolls over and over then it'll start.

Solster

do you have the same shitty E3 plugs? if so replace them with NGK's

it may seem like i have bad opinion of E3 plugs but it more of a known fact they are trash

feret

Thanks for that tip, Solster. I replaced the aforementioned shitty E3 plugs with the original NGK ZFR4F-11 (4043) plugs and that seemed to resolve the issue of the engine stuttering. I drove it around the block a few times and it seemed to run smoothly.

The first time I started it after replacing the plugs, it took a few tries to get it to turn over but afterwards, it seemed to start each time (now that it was warmed up, I presume). Unfortunately, it wouldn't start at all on this chilly morning (though it cranked just fine). I still have yet to test the starter switch and motor.

I looked into the parts that make up the starter switch in the steering column. I can probably pull a switch cheaply from a junk car at least for the purposes of testing (rather than throw almost $300 for a new one). Can anyone confirm that the key cylinder and the starter switch are separate components? Or is it recommended to replace both anyway?

As for my last issue, the non-functioning tach, I finally found that pesky blue wire vaguely mentioned in the shop manual so I'll be doing some testing on that as well the next time I have some time with daylight.

Thanks again!

-Jeff

pityocamptes

Are you getting fuel first thing in the morning? I would crack the fuel line, by the fuel filter etc. and run it to a can and crank it over, first thing in the morning, to see if you are getting fuel. Your fuel pump might be going bad and losing prime/pressure after sitting for a while... just a thought...

feret

Thanks pityocamptes. However, I could try that but as I had mentioned a few days ago:

Also, the engine runs fine once it actually starts (particularly after I swapped the aforementioned shitty E3 plugs for NGK's).

Thanks,

Jeff

pityocamptes

You might have line pressure loss due to bad pump, which causes you to lose prime. If the car has been sitting awhile and you crack the line at the filter are you seeing pressure?

pityocamptes

The other thought is ignition timing?

feret

Well, I definitely think the starting issue is temperature related (or at least exasperated by the cold).

Last night, I tested the continuity on each key position using the two plugs coming from the ignition switch as per the shop manual and everything passed. The outside temperature was around 55-60F and while it took three tries to start the car, I was able to get it running. I let it run for a few minutes, turned it off, then tried starting it again two more times. The engine turned over normally on both subsequent tries.

I tried again this morning with the temperature around 30-35F but the car wouldn't turn over at all. I cranked it on and off for about 5 minutes, letting it crank steadily for about 10 seconds at one point, until finally giving up. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to get it started later today when it warms up.

My next step will be to test the solenoid and the clutch interlock switch.

A few questions:
- If the problem was in the fuel line, would the engine still potentially run smoothly after it started? Of course, I originally thought the issue was the fuel line but it turned out to be the shitty E3 spark plugs.
- Would temperature affect the ignition timing? I adjusted the timing about 5000 miles/18 months ago when I replaced the distributor and it was running fine up until about 3 months ago. Also, would the engine run smoothly after it started if the timing was off?

On another note, I was finally able to test the AC voltage at the tach test plug in the upper right corner under the hood and it seemed to fluctuate along with the RPM's. I presume this means that I'll have to crack open the dashboard again to (re)test there with my existing one and with the aforementioned one from the 1995 civic.

Thanks!

-Jeff

feret

Update:

I'm pretty sure it's not the ignition switch.

I pulled two ignition switches from a junkyard: one from a '93 Del Sol and the other from a '93 Civic EX. Oddly, even though both cars take the same ignition switch part number, the one from the del sol has some extra stuff on it along with three extra wires on one of the plugs.

Regardless, I plugged in both ignition switches and experienced no change in the symptoms. Both eventually started the car but not without a lot of cranking a none of the typical "turning over" (crank, crank, crank, oh look, the engine's running).

I still have yet to test the clutch switch (I'm guessing unlikely) and the starter cut relay (somewhat more likely) and I've been thinking of changing the fuel filter for ***** & giggles but unless anyone has anything else to test, I'm probably going to call for an appointment with Hoshi on Monday :-(

Thanks again for all the suggestions thus far.

-Jeff

EsotericImage

iTrader: (8)

I always knew those plugs were too good to be true. And the Marketing!
They dont even advertise the heat range, that should the 1st red flag as these are 1 plug fits all hype
More Power with a plug change!

yea right. Im hitting the bullshit button.

feret

Hi all,

I finally have a fully working Civic VX. I took the car over to Hoshi and after about 2 hours, they isolated all of the problems to a faulty igniter in the distributor. Once that was replaced, the tach started working again, the engine starts normal and the hesitation/stutters went away. Now I get to deal with the company who sold me the distributor. There's a lifetime warranty on it (it's only 1 1/2 years old) but since they replaced the igniter with an official Honda part, I'm not sure what they're going to do.

Major kudos to Hoshi Motors in Boulder, CO. I've been using them for over 13 years and still can't recommend them enough.

Again, many thanks to all those who offered suggestions!

-Jeff