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Old 06-09-2006, 10:44 PM   #1
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Default GRRR.. rear brakes calipers

Alright so I swapped out the front brakes and one of the rear brakes and it went all well so once I got the last caliper off started turning the piston back in, but then it got to a point were no matter what I would do it would start to twist the rubber seal to the point wear the seal would begin to go over the top of the piston so I turned it back some and figured I would just try and see if the caliper would fit over the pads at this point and it wouldn't go on at all, so I pull the caliper back out and start turning it again, but this time it didn't twist the seal anymore but now the piston just spins freely and will not go back in any further. When I took a closer look at the seal I can see a crack (prolly from the seal hitting that tab on the pad) thats a little less than 1 mm long and about the thickness of a thin hair (I no clue if it even goes all the way through, how thick is the seal on the caliper?? the crack doesnt go down very deep at all..)
What is going on here, did the seal just rip? Would the keep the piston from going in further?? cuz it just spins now but doesnt go back at all. I've never done brakes on the "turn type" caliper up to this point, so i'm a little confused to what happened here..
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Old 06-10-2006, 12:02 AM   #2
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Default Re: GRRR.. rear brakes calipers (93CamaroLT1)

^^^^ Winner of the "Honda-Tech.com Longest Run-On Sentence Award" Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size.

Seriously, though... Dang. A torn Piston Boot Seal will need to be replaced, unless you wish to continually leak Brake Fluid as well as run the risk of having your Brakes fail on you. But there are a couple of things that we need to answer to determine why your Piston won't seat properly...

First off, what's the YMMDTTO for your Rear Caliper Body? If you have "7CLP13S/R3" stamped on it, then read on. If not, then read on, but keep in mind your diagram, PNs, and actual instructions may differ slightly...

http://slhondaparts.com/browse...=true

With the Caliper Body removed, move the Parking Brake Lever (#23/33) back and forth. Does your Piston move in & out? If not, then you may have (somehow) busted the small Pushrod (#15), and now one of the pieces of it is preventing your the internals of your Caliper Bore from retracting completely... You'll need to fully disassemble the Caliper to fix & replace it. But if your Parking Brake moves the Piston in AND out, then your Caliper's internals are OK, and there's something else going on...

Now try to COMPLETELY REMOVE your Piston by unscrewing it all the way back out. If it spins ad infinitum (as it does when you try to tighten it), then you may've busted your Adjusting Bolt (#27). If this is the case, let me know, and I'll try to go through the LONG, ARDUOUS process of getting things working again (but not tonight). Don't worry about the difficulty of it.. It'll take longer for me to explain how to do so than it will to do it. If it *can* twist back out, then you're not as screwed...

There are a couple of rubber Seals/Grommets (un-numbered in the diagram above, as they are part of the OEM Caliper Repair Kit) that may have dislodged. From the innermost to outtermost: Piston Sleeve Seal (between #15 & #16), Adjusting Bolt Seal (between #16 & #27), Piston Ring Seal (between #19 & #9), and the Piston Boot (your seal that has the crack, to the right of #9).

If it's just your Piston Boot that's binding and preventing the Piston from twisting deeper into the Bore, then you can: use an empty toilet paper tube; tuck one end of it inside the Boot; drop the Piston into the top of the empty tube; lightly screw the Piston onto the Adjusting Bolt; and then slip the empty toilet paper tube back off.

If any of the other Seals (other than the Piston Boot) have become dislodged or unseated, it might also be preventing your Piston from retracting completely. Unfortunately, there's no way to know for sure if this is the case unless you COMPLETELY "brakedown" your Caliper's internals. To do that, you need a pair of Snap Ring Pliers ( http://gpcmoto.com/productclos...=2529 or http://www.hondapartsdeals.com...parts ), and a Brake Spring Compressor ( http://www.hondapartsdeals.com...parts )... Essentially, you'll need to do a Full Caliper Rebuild... Again, I can help walk you through that, but it's gonna take some time...

There is also a chance that the Spring (#11) isn't providing enough force to keep your Adjusting Bolt stationary. I doubt this is the case, because there's a lot of tension in that spring, and the spacing is very tight (hence, the need for the Brake Spring Compressor)...

The Piston Sleeve might've dislodged from the Pilot Holes deep in the Caliper Bore. Again, this is a slight possibilty at best, for the same reasons mentioned directly above. Furthermore, there typically isn't enough travel with the Parking Brake Lever/Shaft for this to happen, but a possibility nonetheless...

So, my suggestion is to first remove the Piston COMPLETELY from the Caliper. You'll be able to look into the Bore after doing so, and we'll get a better idea of what's really going on in there. If it won't screw off (in the case of a broken Adjusting Bolt), then simply tear out your Piston Boot and/or vice-grip that MF-er out (with a rag as a cushion)...

But... PIX, PIX, PIX!!! Show us your Piston Boot, and your Caliper Bore (after removing the Piston, if possible). It'll give us a better idea of how to proceed...
Hang in there, although I know how frustrated and impatient I'd be if this were happening on my DD... Click the image to open in full size.
JasonGhostz
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Old 06-10-2006, 12:34 AM   #3
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Default Re: GRRR.. rear brakes calipers (JasonGhostz)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonGhostz
^^^^ Winner of the "Honda-Tech.com Longest Run-On Sentence Award" Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size.

Seriously, though... Dang. A torn Piston Boot Seal will need to be replaced, unless you wish to continually leak Brake Fluid as well as run the risk of having your Brakes fail on you. But there are a couple of things that we need to answer to determine why your Piston won't seat properly...

First off, what's the YMMDTTO for your Rear Caliper Body? If you have "7CLP13S/R3" stamped on it, then read on. If not, then read on, but keep in mind your diagram, PNs, and actual instructions may differ slightly...

http://slhondaparts.com/browse...=true

With the Caliper Body removed, move the Parking Brake Lever (#23/33) back and forth. Does your Piston move in & out? If not, then you may have (somehow) busted the small Pushrod (#15), and now one of the pieces of it is preventing your the internals of your Caliper Bore from retracting completely... You'll need to fully disassemble the Caliper to fix & replace it. But if your Parking Brake moves the Piston in AND out, then your Caliper's internals are OK, and there's something else going on...

Now try to COMPLETELY REMOVE your Piston by unscrewing it all the way back out. If it spins ad infinitum (as it does when you try to tighten it), then you may've busted your Adjusting Bolt (#27). If this is the case, let me know, and I'll try to go through the LONG, ARDUOUS process of getting things working again (but not tonight). Don't worry about the difficulty of it.. It'll take longer for me to explain how to do so than it will to do it. If it *can* twist back out, then you're not as screwed...

There are a couple of rubber Seals/Grommets (un-numbered in the diagram above, as they are part of the OEM Caliper Repair Kit) that may have dislodged. From the innermost to outtermost: Piston Sleeve Seal (between #15 & #16), Adjusting Bolt Seal (between #16 & #27), Piston Ring Seal (between #19 & #9), and the Piston Boot (your seal that has the crack, to the right of #9).

If it's just your Piston Boot that's binding and preventing the Piston from twisting deeper into the Bore, then you can: use an empty toilet paper tube; tuck one end of it inside the Boot; drop the Piston into the top of the empty tube; lightly screw the Piston onto the Adjusting Bolt; and then slip the empty toilet paper tube back off.

If any of the other Seals (other than the Piston Boot) have become dislodged or unseated, it might also be preventing your Piston from retracting completely. Unfortunately, there's no way to know for sure if this is the case unless you COMPLETELY "brakedown" your Caliper's internals. To do that, you need a pair of Snap Ring Pliers ( http://gpcmoto.com/productclos...=2529 or http://www.hondapartsdeals.com...parts ), and a Brake Spring Compressor ( http://www.hondapartsdeals.com...parts )... Essentially, you'll need to do a Full Caliper Rebuild... Again, I can help walk you through that, but it's gonna take some time...

There is also a chance that the Spring (#11) isn't providing enough force to keep your Adjusting Bolt stationary. I doubt this is the case, because there's a lot of tension in that spring, and the spacing is very tight (hence, the need for the Brake Spring Compressor)...

The Piston Sleeve might've dislodged from the Pilot Holes deep in the Caliper Bore. Again, this is a slight possibilty at best, for the same reasons mentioned directly above. Furthermore, there typically isn't enough travel with the Parking Brake Lever/Shaft for this to happen, but a possibility nonetheless...

So, my suggestion is to first remove the Piston COMPLETELY from the Caliper. You'll be able to look into the Bore after doing so, and we'll get a better idea of what's really going on in there. If it won't screw off (in the case of a broken Adjusting Bolt), then simply tear out your Piston Boot and/or vice-grip that MF-er out (with a rag as a cushion)...

But... PIX, PIX, PIX!!! Show us your Piston Boot, and your Caliper Bore (after removing the Piston, if possible). It'll give us a better idea of how to proceed...
Hang in there, although I know how frustrated and impatient I'd be if this were happening on my DD... Click the image to open in full size.
JasonGhostz
Wow, just looking at the image of the caliper parts I can tell this is going to be quite complex. I'll try and see it the piston will go back the other way tommorrow. I can't really tell if that crack goes through but if it does when I pump the brake down there will be fluid gushing out of it correct? If it the caliper is actually messed up more that just a crack in the boot and the boot just binding i'll prolly just end up dishing out the cash replacing the whole thing cuz I really need to get this car back on the road by monday morning. How exactly does this toilet paper roll thing work? What would you use to turn the piston if you put the empty toilet paper on the sides of the piston to keep if from binding? I was just using the flat part of a allen key to turn the piston, but that's not really gonna work with a toilet paper roll on the end of there.
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Old 06-10-2006, 01:14 AM   #4
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Default Re: GRRR.. rear brakes calipers (93CamaroLT1)

Also wondering, if the boot is cracked and everything else is all good, what's the procedure to change that? Do you pretty much just unscrew the piston all the way and then pull out the boot, put a new one in and put the piston back in, and the bleed that brake line?
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Old 06-10-2006, 08:17 AM   #5
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Default Re: GRRR.. rear brakes calipers (93CamaroLT1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93CamaroLT1
I can't really tell if that crack goes through but if it does when I pump the brake down there will be fluid gushing out of it correct?
If it's just a dry-rot-type of crack, your Boot will be OK, but only for a while. If it is cracked all the way through, then it will leak Brake Fluid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93CamaroLT1
If it the caliper is actually messed up more that just a crack in the boot and the boot just binding i'll prolly just end up dishing out the cash replacing the whole thing cuz I really need to get this car back on the road by monday morning.
Dang... With a time constraint like that, you will probably end up doing this. Click the image to open in full size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93CamaroLT1
How exactly does this toilet paper roll thing work? What would you use to turn the piston if you put the empty toilet paper on the sides of the piston to keep if from binding? I was just using the flat part of a allen key to turn the piston, but that's not really gonna work with a toilet paper roll on the end of there.
You can trim the toilet paper tube to a size where the top of the Piston will protrude enough for you to use your Allen Wrench, or a pair of Needle Nose Pliers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93CamaroLT1
Also wondering, if the boot is cracked and everything else is all good, what's the procedure to change that? Do you pretty much just unscrew the piston all the way and then pull out the boot, put a new one in and put the piston back in, and the bleed that brake line?
Yep! It will help to lubricate the Boot with Rubber Grease, and the Piston with Brake Fluid... The Piston Boot might be available from a local shop. Raybestos manufactures/sells them individually...
http://www.raybestos.com/catalog/consumer/icat.cgi

I just remembered that there's one other thing that might be contributing to your problem. Make sure that there's nothing in the threaded part of the Piston that's preventing it from screwing all the way down. Make sure that this is clear from any debris that may have fallen in there, and/or shine a light and see if it's gotten damaged somehow...

I gotta get ready for the day. I wish I could help more, but your Monday deadline lurks ominously... Hopefully others will help while I'm out...
JasonGhostz
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Old 06-10-2006, 12:50 PM   #6
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Default Re: GRRR.. rear brakes calipers (JasonGhostz)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonGhostz
If it's just a dry-rot-type of crack, your Boot will be OK, but only for a while. If it is cracked all the way through, then it will leak Brake Fluid.

Dang... With a time constraint like that, you will probably end up doing this. Click the image to open in full size.

You can trim the toilet paper tube to a size where the top of the Piston will protrude enough for you to use your Allen Wrench, or a pair of Needle Nose Pliers.

Yep! It will help to lubricate the Boot with Rubber Grease, and the Piston with Brake Fluid... The Piston Boot might be available from a local shop. Raybestos manufactures/sells them individually...
http://www.raybestos.com/catalog/consumer/icat.cgi

I just remembered that there's one other thing that might be contributing to your problem. Make sure that there's nothing in the threaded part of the Piston that's preventing it from screwing all the way down. Make sure that this is clear from any debris that may have fallen in there, and/or shine a light and see if it's gotten damaged somehow...

I gotta get ready for the day. I wish I could help more, but your Monday deadline lurks ominously... Hopefully others will help while I'm out...
JasonGhostz
Ok, now i'm really confused to whats wrong. I just went outside and the tryed to turn the piston and it did turn the other way, so I went ahead and turned the piston back in some and jumped into the car and hit the brake and no brake fluid came out from that I thought was a "crack", so to just double check that I hit the brake pedal all the way down one more time and this time the piston came all the way out and fluid came out, not from the "crack" (turns out this was just a very very small spot were the rubber had dry rotted) but fluid came out from the bottom of the seal after the piston was almost out of the seal (this is normal right?.. the piston should come out of the threads like that?). So after this I thought i'd just give it one more shot and turned the piston back in and this time with the brake fluid sitting there lubricating that seal it didn't get caught up at all but once the piston goes down quite a bit it just keeps turning and won't turn anymore, just like before and at this point the caliper still won't fit over the pads (yes the notch on the pad is aligned properly).. Once the piston bottoms out it shoudl just stop turning correct?... The one on the other side did, so I really have no clue to what going on.


Modified by 93CamaroLT1 at 3:05 PM 6/10/2006
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Old 06-10-2006, 02:24 PM   #7
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Default Re: GRRR.. rear brakes calipers (93CamaroLT1)

I was thinking if something else has dislodged in there and that just keeping it from fully retracting, what if I were to just somehow cut the new pads down a little bit, bleed the that line (it was leaking fluid when I hit the pedal and the piston came out of the bore, this is suppose to happen right?) and call it a day?.. it appears that the caliper works perfectly besides the fact that it just barely doesn't clear the new pads due the piston not bottoming out at the bottom of the bore. Also what do you use to cut down the pads?... would this be something I could get done at a machine shop?
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Old 06-10-2006, 02:36 PM   #8
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Default Re: GRRR.. rear brakes calipers (93CamaroLT1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93CamaroLT1
I just went outside and the tried to turn the piston and it did turn the other way, so I went ahead and turned the piston back in some and jumped into the car and hit the brake and no brake fluid came out from that I thought was a "crack", so to just double check that I hit the brake pedal all the way down one more time and this time the piston came all the way out and fluid came out, not from the "crack" (turns out this was just a very very small spot were the rubber had dry rotted) but fluid came out from the bottom of the seal after the piston was almost out of the seal (this is normal right?.. the piston should come out of the threads like that?).
If you press your Brake Pedal while your Calipers are unloaded (no Pads, no Rotor to press against), the Hydraulic pressure will push the Piston out as far as it can. This can result in the Piston Boot dislodging from the circumferential groove found near the "top" of the Piston (blue arrow in the pic below), and might allow for Brake Fluid to seep out.
http://img111.imageshack.us/im...a.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93CamaroLT1
So after this I thought i'd just give it one more shot and turned the piston back in and this time with the brake fluid sitting there lubricating that seal it didn't get caught up at all but once the piston goes down quite a bit it just keeps turning and won't turn anymore, just like before and at this point the caliper still won't fit over the pads (yes the notch on the pad is aligned properly).. Once the piston bottoms out it should just stop turning correct?... The one on the other side did...
Since the threaded portion of the Piston Assembly is shorter than the Adjusting Bolt, there is a point where the Piston will no longer screw onto it. Here's a pic of the Piston (upside down) and Adjusting Bolt, with the red arrow pointing to the Piston Assembly's threaded ****... Please don't make me disassemble the Piston.. it's a bitch to put back together...
http://img125.imageshack.us/im...m.jpg
Here's a pic of the two fully threaded, but without the other internals in the way to give resistance...
http://img128.imageshack.us/im...r.jpg
The pic in the previous paragraph above ( http://img111.imageshack.us/im...a.jpg ) shows the Piston screwed as far as it will go, but with the other internals where they should be.

As you can see, there isn't THAT much difference in terms of how far it should retract. So, if your Piston keeps spinning, then the Adjusting Bolt/Piston Assembly is likely spinning together. If this is the case, then the rubber seal that goes around the inner end of your Adjusting Bolt (which is supposed to help prevent this) is either dislodged and/or damaged... = Caliper Rebuild or purchase of Reman'd Caliper. Click the image to open in full size.

Here are some real-world pics of the Rear Caliper's internals, without the rubber seals...
http://img221.imageshack.us/im...z.jpg
From Top Left to Bottom Right...
A - Parking Brake Pushrod
B - Piston Sleeve
C - Adjusting Bolt
D - Bearing
E - Spacer
F - Spring
G - Spring Guide
H - Snap Ring (to hold everything in place, EXCEPT your Piston)
I - Piston Assembly (there are actually a couple of more parts inside of it)

But you need to get a camera and take a picture of your Caliper Bore, with the Piston removed. Unless you want to COMPLETELY REBUILD your Caliper, we need to see more to determine what's wrong...

I gotta go back out, and I don't know when I'm coming back. Maybe you can post a link to this thread in the Suspension Forum, and hope that one of the bad-asses in there can help us. Until then, contemplate buying a reman'd Caliper, and stay hush-hush about the problems you're having with the one you return (for your Core refund)...
Hang in there. GL!
JasonGhostz
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Old 06-10-2006, 03:53 PM   #9
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Default Re: GRRR.. rear brakes calipers (JasonGhostz)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonGhostz
If you press your Brake Pedal while your Calipers are unloaded (no Pads, no Rotor to press against), the Hydraulic pressure will push the Piston out as far as it can. This can result in the Piston Boot dislodging from the circumferential groove found near the "top" of the Piston (blue arrow in the pic below), and might allow for Brake Fluid to seep out.
http://img111.imageshack.us/im...a.jpg

Since the threaded portion of the Piston Assembly is shorter than the Adjusting Bolt, there is a point where the Piston will no longer screw onto it. Here's a pic of the Piston (upside down) and Adjusting Bolt, with the red arrow pointing to the Piston Assembly's threaded ****... Please don't make me disassemble the Piston.. it's a bitch to put back together...
http://img125.imageshack.us/im...m.jpg
Here's a pic of the two fully threaded, but without the other internals in the way to give resistance...
http://img128.imageshack.us/im...r.jpg
The pic in the previous paragraph above ( http://img111.imageshack.us/im...a.jpg ) shows the Piston screwed as far as it will go, but with the other internals where they should be.

As you can see, there isn't THAT much difference in terms of how far it should retract. So, if your Piston keeps spinning, then the Adjusting Bolt/Piston Assembly is likely spinning together. If this is the case, then the rubber seal that goes around the inner end of your Adjusting Bolt (which is supposed to help prevent this) is either dislodged and/or damaged... = Caliper Rebuild or purchase of Reman'd Caliper. Click the image to open in full size.

Here are some real-world pics of the Rear Caliper's internals, without the rubber seals...
http://img221.imageshack.us/im...z.jpg
From Top Left to Bottom Right...
A - Parking Brake Pushrod
B - Piston Sleeve
C - Adjusting Bolt
D - Bearing
E - Spacer
F - Spring
G - Spring Guide
H - Snap Ring (to hold everything in place, EXCEPT your Piston)
I - Piston Assembly (there are actually a couple of more parts inside of it)

But you need to get a camera and take a picture of your Caliper Bore, with the Piston removed. Unless you want to COMPLETELY REBUILD your Caliper, we need to see more to determine what's wrong...

I gotta go back out, and I don't know when I'm coming back. Maybe you can post a link to this thread in the Suspension Forum, and hope that one of the bad-asses in there can help us. Until then, contemplate buying a reman'd Caliper, and stay hush-hush about the problems you're having with the one you return (for your Core refund)...
Hang in there. GL!
JasonGhostz
Damn, that sucks, I wonder how that seal ended up getting damaged, oh well guess i'll just have to dish up some cash and get a new caliper (I was actually looking at it and it is actually cheaper for me to just buy a whole new/reman. caliper than to buy those 2 tools you showed that i'll need).. One more question tho, How do I get that ebrake lever pin out? The little cotter pin on this side is apparently non existent, but the clevis pin that goes through that peice of metal that holds the cable on the caliper (not very clear I know) is rusted in place hardcore, how do I pop this out (PB blaster and some force?)?
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Old 06-10-2006, 05:38 PM   #10
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Default Re: GRRR.. rear brakes calipers (93CamaroLT1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93CamaroLT1
Damn, that sucks, I wonder how that seal ended up getting damaged
Well, that seal might still be OK. Considering the amount of rust you mentioned on your Parking Brake Lever, the Spring might be dead, preventing the Adjusting Bolt from staying in place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93CamaroLT1
How do I get that ebrake lever pin out? The little cotter pin on this side is apparently non existent, but the clevis pin that goes through that piece of metal that holds the cable on the caliper (not very clear I know) is rusted in place hardcore, how do I pop this out (PB blaster and some force?)?
PB Blaster is good, but I think 3-in-1 is better. It actually softens the rust, and you can see it work. It seems (to me) to be much better at soaking into rust than anything else I've ever used (other than actual rust removers).

After soaking it, you can take a pair of Pliers and place one jaw under the Clevis Pin, and try to angle it so that the top jaw presses on top of the Parking Brake Cable end. This might help you get the leverage you need to push it out.

Either way, there's no shame in buying Reman'd Calipers. The pricing for them is so cheap that it's not that big of a deal (especially if you're only getting an Unloaded Caliper Body, with a Core rebate). I wanted to learn, and since I have the luxury of time, I didn't mind spending or doing whatever it takes to "Remanufacture" my own set...

Anyway, let us know how things go, and GL!
JasonGhostz
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Old 06-10-2006, 11:07 PM   #11
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Default Re: GRRR.. rear brakes calipers (JasonGhostz)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonGhostz
Well, that seal might still be OK. Considering the amount of rust you mentioned on your Parking Brake Lever, the Spring might be dead, preventing the Adjusting Bolt from staying in place.
Not too sure if it makes any difference, but now that I think about it that caliper didn't come off as easily as the other did, the rotor still spun by hand but only the upper portion of the caliper would come off and I ended up having to wedge a flathead screwdriver between the metal on the front of the caliper and the rotor to pull it off. I'll bet that things been messed up for quite some time now, cuz the caliper still functions fully the piston just doesn't go down all the way when you turn it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonGhostz
I wanted to learn, and since I have the luxury of time, I didn't mind spending or doing whatever it takes to "Remanufacture" my own set...

Yeah, i'm actually kindof interested in taking it apart just to get a better understanding of how it all works and if this was on my camaro I would for sure do it, but time constaints suck. Anyway thanks for all the help (being that you are the only one that responded to this post at all) it was greatly appreciated.
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Old 06-14-2006, 09:23 PM   #12
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Default Re: GRRR.. rear brakes calipers (93CamaroLT1)

So, I finally just got fed up with messing with this yesterday and just got towed (free through insurance Click the image to open in full size. ) to a shop yesterday and found out that one of the sliding pins had just froze up on my rear caliper and that's why the new pads wouldn't fit... Guess I should've been checking those, didn't realize that they actually served a purpose until yesterday... i've never actually worked with these though, i've done the brakes on my camaro twice now and all the calipers just use 2 allen bolts that run through the hub and there isn't even a bracket or anything. Oh, well it ended up costing me about $30 for labor with bleeding the line, so that was a pretty good deal.
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