bambbrose

iTrader: (1)

EDIT UPDATE I have a lead. I pulled my fuel rail off, and then reassembled the injector system off of the intake manifold. With the bad ecu the injectors are firing every 1 second or so when I am cranking, all four of them. With the good ecu, the injectors are not firing, although I did get one fire randomly. So I'm going to start tearing apart the injector circuit and reading as to what will cause injectors to not fire
/update


This will be long but I want to be detailed as possible. Please read if you have time and offer any input. I've been trying to figure this out for weeks.

Car Details:
Car is 97 civic dx hatch.

Engine is 94 JDM H22A

Engine harness is the 97 DX harness

Using Rywire obd2a to obd1 conversion harness

My ECU is a chipped p75 converted to p72, but I've also tried virgin p28 (which is verified to start and run h22 by my other thread), virgin p06, virgin p75, and known BAD P13.
I still have all five ECU's at my disposal for testing.

Symptoms:

We have two different scenarios

SCENARIO 1:

Using my known fried p13 ecu, or using my chipped ecu with a bad bin burned to the chip.

The car is in limp mode. While in limp mode the car will crank, start, and run. It runs like *** as to be expected in limp mode. Has solid CEL, which will not turn off when jumpered to check it. It does have the fuel pump prime for 2 seconds like it should. Idles like its about to die. Rev limit is 3000 rpm.

SCENARIO 2:

Using my ecu, or the virgin p28, or the virgin p75.

Crank but no start.
No check engine lights. When jumpered it is a solid CEL like it should be.
Fuel pump is priming for 2 seconds like it should.
Occasionally it will sputter as if it wants to start but never does. It sputters typically right after running it when in limp mode as if extra fuel is left over in the cylinder.

What I've done as far as wiring:
all wiring is done properly with solder and heatshrink. I've done multiple swaps and never had wiring issues yet

-Converted to obd1 distributor plugs, verified wiring with two diagrams located on H-T.
-Converted to obd1 alternator plug using diagram on H-T.
-Added knock sensor wire to D6 obd2a-->D3 obd1
-Added Vtec solenoid wire to A8 obd2a-->A4 obd1
-Added Vtec oil pres wire to C15 obd2a-->D6 obd1
-Added Vtec oil pres ground to thermostat ground
-Did IACV fix, moved IACV from A14 to A12, & removed A13 pin (orange wire), swapped IACV plug
-Installed IAB wire to A26 obd2a-->A17 obd1, and IAB power to A11 obd2a (ignition power)
-Installed oem honda resistor box following hondatas diagram.
-Installed EGR wiring according to the H22 EG/EK FAQ thread.

Things I've tried so far

-I've checked spark. I have good spark on all four plugs.
-I have fuel at the fuel rail.
-I have 12v with key on at all four injector wires. It also pulses when I crank as the ECU grounds them out.
-I have verified that I have peak/hold injectors via Ohm testing. They are obd1 injectors for h22a I am told. I have not verified that they are 100% prelude vtec injectors, as they could perhaps be h23 injectors.
-I have double and tripple checked my wiring. I have went as far as Ohm testing each individual wire to verify continuity. I have torn the entire harness apart to make certain that all the wires are going to the correct location.
-Obviously I have tried all of my different available ECUs as well to verify that it is not an ECU issue.
-I have checked actual mechanical timing with the cam gears and flywheel slot, as well as looking down the #1 cyl to verify TDC.
-I also check the Ohms of the coil and igniter and they are good as well.
-I have also checked the entire Obd conversion harness and it is correct according to ffsquad's diagrams.
-Trans ground, head ground, and thermo ground are all good grounds.
-Firing order is
34
12, which is correct to my knowledge.


Does anybody have any insight? I have checked every last thing I can think of. Maybe there is something else it could be that I'm unaware of? I've never swapped an obd2a car before, only obd1 stuff so maybe it's something simple I was unaware of?

I'm baffled how it can run in limp mode but will not run out of limp mode.

Please please give any input, simple or complex.

Thanks for everything H-T. I need to get this **** going for AutoX later this month





Modified by bambbrose at 7:23 AM 7/7/2007


Modified by bambbrose at 8:20 AM 7/7/2007


Modified by bambbrose at 9:17 PM 7/7/2007


Modified by bambbrose at 9:17 PM 7/7/2007

bambbrose

iTrader: (1)

One thing I have just noticed, during scenario 2, using my good ecu, if I unplug random sensors before trying to start it it still wont start, but it never throws a code for any of them.

Can someone do me a huge favor and go outside, unplug a sensor, and then just turn your key to the ON position without starting the car, and then let me know if it shows a cel for that sensor?

I think map and tps are the main two that might cause a CEL.

My reasoning for this is if it does show a CEL on someone elses vehicle then that verifies that I have ECU/Wiring issues. If it doesn't then I could still possibly have mechanical issues

Luserkid

CEL wont come on unless you start the car and the computer gets its readings.

From the sounds of it this is what i would do to start (if you can make a video that helps alot better). Make sure you have the injectors in the right order (dont know it off the top of my head, sorry). Also for the firing order the flat part of the dist. indicates the 3 and 4 then under that is 1 and 2 obviously. Then its 1 closest to the crank and 4 being the dist. (sorry you probably know it but you have to tell people just incase they dont remember).

Another thing to look for is if the dist. fins are upside down (180 out). If it is youll get a good spark but no start. Check your TPS and MAP plugs and make sure there not mixed. Other then that i would need to see a video of start up to help more. Good luck.

bambbrose

iTrader: (1)

My firing order is exactly as you decribe.

I'm fairly certain that because of the way it starts in limp mode that can eliminate some possibilities but which ones I am unsure of.

Here are some videos.

First video is scenario 1, bad ecu in limp mode startup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGnS3evrGjU


As you can see it starts up and runs fine, with a slight miss at idle and 3000 rpm fuel cut. Once warmed up it will occasionally stall and will idle extremely low, missing often, and running worse. That annoying wine is just my timing belt being too tight. Its amplified by the video for some reason

Second video, scenario 2, good ecu, no CEL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBX_dmUgkkM

As you can see in this one, the engine cranks and occasionally sputters. I get no CEL at all regardless if I plug a sensor in or not. I've also tried unplugging random sensors and trying to start it with no luck at all.


Any new ideas?

here is my firing order



here are my injectors, 4 is yellow, 3 is light blue, 2 is red, and 1 is brown like they should be. They also ohm test out to the correct locations at the ecu. The other wires all individually go to the resistor box, and then the resistor box ties into 12v ignition.

ALLMOTORH22A

i think firing order is wrong.. try this.. i edit ur pic hope u dont mind

bambbrose

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ALLMOTORH22A &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think firing order is wrong.. try this.. i edit ur pic hope u dont mind
</TD></TR></TABLE>

hey thanks for the input. I'm 99% sure my firing order is correct, but for ***** and giggles I tried out your method. Using the way you described my plug wires barely reach, and it doesn't turn over at all during scenario 1 or 2.

The fact that it runs decent in limp mode shows that the firing order must be correct the way I have it.

Thanks for the help though. Any ideas are helpful at this point

ALLMOTORH22A

interesting.. cuz i have an h22 in my car and thats how i have my firing order

bambbrose

iTrader: (1)

I've checked the firing order with all of the other diagrams online including the picture in this thread
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1710691

that is how I have mine

THC07

your firing order is right, im sure of it.
you have your #s drawn all funny in that pic, so its confusing ppl.
What did you do about the crank positioning and fluctuation wires?

crank angle for start-up

confusing me that you can start in limp, but cannot with good ecu. limp mode will bypass some sensors, dont know which ones tho.
you def have spark so im thinging something with crank angle, keeping to motor... i dunno, NM. good luck thats screwy.

bambbrose

iTrader: (1)

The crank sensor is not connected as I am running obd1 and it is no longer needed.

bambbrose

iTrader: (1)

I have a lead! Updated at the top of the first post

ALLMOTORH22A

when i was looking thru the clithons r wutever.. for the prelude and civic, some of the injector wires r in different places.. might wut to try and find a wiring diagram and check that out

bambbrose

iTrader: (1)

I've verified injector wiring is correct.

Do resistor boxes ever fail?

I'm redoing all grounds right now in case one isn't making good contact.

bambbrose

iTrader: (1)

concluded that resistor box is functioning correctly.

Next step is to find out what sensors can cause the ecu to disable the injector circuit.

I'm told that the TDC or CKP might cause this. Anybody want to verify?

h22apwrdcivic

this is true. mine did the same thing

bambbrose

iTrader: (1)

I solved the problem on Sunday.

It was due to dizzy wiring. The diagram posted by Posion on the first page of the h22 swap faq thread is incorrect, as is a few other diagrams floating around this website. I ended up just wiring the dizzy up by following the wires back to the ecu and it fixed it.

So for future searchers, the obd1 obd2 dizzy diagram by poison in the H22 FAQ thread is incorrect. Also the CYP sensor DOES prevent the injector circuit from working.
Also while in limp mode the ECU does indeed ignore the TDC and CYP sensors (thats why my limp mode ecu would start the car)