TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Soooooo this goes with what we were saying.. listing it doesn't change much.. Get to work!!

justYncredible

iTrader: (1)

Thank you Mac for explaining my point to that dude.

1lowek2007

What hp is this intercooler rated for?
Edit: sorry i tried to quote a post on the first page but the picture i was referring to didnt show up.

SiRCiviC94

Thanks! I will post any upgrades or steps in the process. I list it to burn it in my brain! & am on the fense for Gsr or CTR cams in the siR head

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

That's fine, though you don't need to re-list it here. That's why you have paper!!

For the power you're looking at, it really won't matter whether you have CTR camshafts or GS-Rs, if your intercooler heat soaks. Concentrate on the intercooler first, then go to the camshafts. Cams won't make up for the possibility of inefficient heat exchange.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Nothing else you do matters if you have a **** intercooler...

You could have a built motor with the best of everything.... your intercooler will still be the choke point for the whole setip

SiRCiviC94

im still under the impression that adding cams will make more power per PSI. I know they are 1gen b16 cams in there and are the softest cams of the Bseries motor family

my cooler measured:

25x3.2x8.... ill double check.

this cooler fits nice and doesnt need the rebar removed. hoping its up to the 301+whp challenge.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Again, you're not understanding. we get 300whp B16s all day long without changing cams.. But you're not looking at the TYPE of intercooler you're using. N3V3R had a great link to ETS's site about the different types. Its not just SIZE, but the configuration that makes it worthwhile.

So spend where you'd like. You'll get 300whp without blinking out of b16 cams. I think you want to change cams, just to say you have "cams" in the car.

SiRCiviC94

lol id rather not install anything. at this rate it sounds like i can just go tune, not even take the valve cover off and the engine will make numbers based on its efficiency. if the turbo will flow 350hp, the cooler can handle 350hp worth of air, the exhaust can flow 350hp and motor withstand 350hp then go for it. the kink and deciding factor is the stock head studs and ebay turbo.

the cams were all about making more using less boost and better cooler to reach those goals on less boost thus running less stress on the engine... compared to using whats there now.

the less changes the better i just dont wanna be running 15lbs to make 300hp when i could be running 8 for example.

appretiate the help

justYncredible

iTrader: (1)

co-sign!

i really like my garrett core intercooler, i buy the real thing!

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Cams won't do that for you. Especially staying with OEM from b16 to GS-R or even Type R. They don't make it as though you have a bigger turbo with less boost pressure. Especially when you're staying the same amount of boost pressure and turbo camshafts assist with power and torque at higher boost pressures, not at the low boost pressures you're running.

In addition. your correlation doesn't make sense from what we're saying. Just because the turbo can do 350whp, doesn't mean automatically that the cooler will too without heatsoak. Check out page 15 of californiadad's thread about where he could not go over 420whp no matter how much more pressure they threw at it because the intercooler could not exchange air effectively.. Once he changed coolers, it was INSTANT 60whp increase with better IATs, more than your "camshaft" idea. 60whp..


Here's where the issue started
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...951496&page=39

Here's where he realized the change without changing one single pound of boost pressure.

Here's what he upgraded
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...951496&page=44
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...951496&page=46

My explanation
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...951496&page=49


Here's the result. Didnt change "cams"
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...951496&page=58


Yes yes, I know you don't want 420whp, pr even 475whp, but look at the correlation. A system is only as strong as its weakest link, and for the last time, we think your intercooler IS that weak link.

nu2teg

Quick question . How does the intercooler piping size come into play with this? Or does it?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Intercooler piping diameter comes into play based upon the velocity of the compressor outlet air into the system. I'm trying to remember the link with the specific formula for the correct speeds (about mach 1- Mach 3 from what I remember, hopefully someone will put up that chart).

But suffice it to say that really 2.5" piping is good from 200-800whp, until you start needing 3". And this is all around from the outlet through the intercooler into the intake manifold.

OneBadTurboCRV

I believe this is what you were asking for, but has calculations in it too...

https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced-induction-16/intercooler-piping-size-3024864/

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Yes.. that was indeed it..

2" piping
1.57 x 2 = 3.14 sq in
300 cfm = 156 mph = 0.20 mach
400 cfm = 208 mph = 0.27 mach
500 cfm = 261 mph = 0.34 mach
585 cfm max = 304 mph = 0.40 mach


2.25" piping
3.9740625 sq in = 1.98703125 x 2
300 cfm = 123 mph = 0.16 mach
400 cfm = 164 mph = 0.21 mach
500 cfm = 205 mph = 0.26 mach
600 cfm = 247 mph = 0.32 mach
700 cfm = 288 mph = 0.37 mach
740 cfm max = 304 mph = 0.40 mach


2.5" piping
4.90625 sq in = 2.453125 x 2
300 cfm = 100 mph = 0.13 mach
400 cfm = 133 mph = 0.17 mach
500 cfm = 166 mph = 0.21 mach
600 cfm = 200 mph = 0.26 mach
700 cfm = 233 mph = 0.30 mach
800 cfm = 266 mph = 0.34 mach
900 cfm = 300 mph = 0.39 mach
913 cfm max = 304 mph = 0.40 mach


2.75" piping
5.9365625 sq in = 2.96828125 x 2
300 cfm = 82 mph = 0.10 mach
400 cfm = 110 mph = 0.14 mach
500 cfm = 137 mph = 0.17 mach
600 cfm = 165 mph = 0.21 mach
700 cfm = 192 mph = 0.25 mach
800 cfm = 220 mph = 0.28 mach
900 cfm = 248 mph = 0.32 mach
1000 cfm = 275 mph = 0.36 mach
1100 cfm max = 303 mph = 0.40 mach


3.0" piping
7.065 sq in = 3.5325 x 2
300 cfm = 69 mph = 0.09 mach
400 cfm = 92 mph = 0.12 mach
500 cfm = 115 mph = 0.15 mach
600 cfm = 138 mph = 0.18 mach
700 cfm = 162 mph = 0.21 mach
800 cfm = 185 mph = 0.24 mach
900 cfm = 208 mph = 0.27 mach
1000 cfm = 231 mph = 0.30 mach
1100 cfm = 254 cfm = 0.33 mach
1200 cfm = 277 mph = 0.36 mach
1300 cfm max= 301 mph = 0.39 mach

5thgen

A little late, but here is a comparison pic I took of a garrett 2012 core and a current precision core.







I used a pen flashlight on the other end to shine back through....not really ideal for comparing, but was what I had laying around. The precision isn't bad, at least the core on the inside has "staggered fins".


I'll be using the garrett on my car though.

SiRCiviC94

Pics of mine!

nu2teg

OK everybody talked about Garrett, Precision, and e-bay. What about Greddy intercoolers?
Living in the southeast with high humidity and temps for at 6mths out of the year. Overheating is a major concern of mine.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

You gotta read page 3. ITs in the Tube-Fin category.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...3074553&page=3

VTEC+Mini

This may have been asked and answered but inch for inch, what is the most efficient air to air intercooler manufacturer? On one of my applications has very limited room for frontal area. The intercooler can be very deep/thick but that's about it. I've thought about water cooled but for many reason I'm not wanting to go that way.

I think I'd just like to get the most efficient air to air intercooler that will fit in my limited space.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Again, please read page 3 for those answers.

VTEC+Mini

Thanks, made things pretty obvious.

integlspwr2k

iTrader: (3)

how are intercoolers of Yester-year compared to Garret 2012 cores?

Im talking mostly about Apexi and ARC intercoolers... I for one LOVED the design of APexi intercoolers (id had them on all my 2 turbo builds) and u can spot them a mile away.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Apex'i Integration had the "Delta Fin" design and was hugely popular from the late 1990's and early 2000's, and at the start of the "ebay generation" was often imitated but never duplicated. They stopped making their intercoolers by about 2006 or so, as their demand went south. When they revamped in 2007, they didn't bring the line back.

Their structure honestly should have been patented. "Delta fin" wasn't just the outer part of the core to channel air more directly to the louvered fins, they were part of the core all the way through to its divider . Take a look






The outside is what the copy-cats concentrated on. This was an authentic model









They were always ahead of their time when it came to their designs, especially the ARC cores. Abby Road Company has always had some very unique designs that incorporate efficiency and quality in a way that is difficult to incorporate mass customization so that it can focus on the big consumer (hence their cost outside of just the name). This is the main reason why only those with a bit better disposable income could afford and use them. I'll admit, my next car will probably have one, now that their back in business..



Very stiff unique plated fin design.

About 30% more efficient and rigid than any treadstone, and as free exchanging as a Garrett core.



Look at the structure of the cores



And the outside



These two companies were the true "ballers" that concentrated on the ultimate in circuit racing even before Time Attack became popular. The problem was that in U.S. only those with a bit more money were able (or more willing) to pick these up. Even when they reached their peak, the masses went for the less expensive stuff, and Garrett started releasing their line to the public a lot faster, with more sizing choices, and at a lower price then these 2 companies.. (Yes, Garretts are actually priced lower than these, for all you cheapos out there. )

So, if you have one, and its authentic, KEEP IT!!! And if you can , USE IT!!

integlspwr2k

iTrader: (3)

Fantastic post mate regarding intercoolers of the 1990's and early 2000. Shows how old / long I have been doing this. LOL.

Having two Apexi cores already, maybe i'll go ahead and try to get a the grail of intercoolers that I've always always wanted, which would be an ARC intercooler...