Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
08-07-2014, 07:05 AM
#51
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
An F1/NASCAR block/setup is going to run ITB's from the get-go, so they build with that in mind and test and check every parameter from day 1 to be sure it will be optimal as the end result. We are talking custom bore, stroke, piston, rod length, cam placement etc. which will be in tune with induction to a "t". A mass produced block can't be manipulated nearly as much.
I'm done with this though, I don't want to cloud up this thread with pissing matches anymore. Bottom line, if the OP wants to spend the time/money to get ITB's properly sized and tuned then yes, I'm sure he can make the most power on them. Is this a motor where 5,000 in parts and tuning is worth it? That's his call but I would guess not.
08-07-2014, 08:29 AM
#52
Anti-GDD White Knight Simp
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
Bro. Those blocks and setups are built to extreme specs and with extensive thought in mind. You cannot tell me honda planned on every k/b/h to have ITB's at some point. They put a manifold on them for one reason, it showed the easiest, cheapest and most well rounded power that way.
An F1/NASCAR block/setup is going to run ITB's from the get-go, so they build with that in mind and test and check every parameter from day 1 to be sure it will be optimal as the end result. We are talking custom bore, stroke, piston, rod length, cam placement etc. which will be in tune with induction to a "t". A mass produced block can't be manipulated nearly as much.
I'm done with this though, I don't want to cloud up this thread with pissing matches anymore. Bottom line, if the OP wants to spend the time/money to get ITB's properly sized and tuned then yes, I'm sure he can make the most power on them. Is this a motor where 5,000 in parts and tuning is worth it? That's his call but I would guess not.
An F1/NASCAR block/setup is going to run ITB's from the get-go, so they build with that in mind and test and check every parameter from day 1 to be sure it will be optimal as the end result. We are talking custom bore, stroke, piston, rod length, cam placement etc. which will be in tune with induction to a "t". A mass produced block can't be manipulated nearly as much.
I'm done with this though, I don't want to cloud up this thread with pissing matches anymore. Bottom line, if the OP wants to spend the time/money to get ITB's properly sized and tuned then yes, I'm sure he can make the most power on them. Is this a motor where 5,000 in parts and tuning is worth it? That's his call but I would guess not.
Now, OP asked which is better, S2 ultra or ITB's. You answered this by saying he could make the most power with a properly tuned ITB. This would also mean that you agree that F1 technology is beneficial to our econo-boxes.
So where exactly do you disagree with me? Were not talking about manipulating the block, we're talking about manipulating the ITB to generate the most power.
08-07-2014, 01:48 PM
#53
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
I think you and rice are the only ones making this into a pissing match by the way you are responding. I want to have a debate about this to gain more knowledge for myself and others, not to argue about it. This title is easily searchable and I want good information for both sides to be on here.
Now, OP asked which is better, S2 ultra or ITB's. You answered this by saying he could make the most power with a properly tuned ITB. This would also mean that you agree that F1 technology is beneficial to our econo-boxes.
So where exactly do you disagree with me? Were not talking about manipulating the block, we're talking about manipulating the ITB to generate the most power.
Now, OP asked which is better, S2 ultra or ITB's. You answered this by saying he could make the most power with a properly tuned ITB. This would also mean that you agree that F1 technology is beneficial to our econo-boxes.
So where exactly do you disagree with me? Were not talking about manipulating the block, we're talking about manipulating the ITB to generate the most power.
08-07-2014, 04:12 PM
#54
Anti-GDD White Knight Simp
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
The question still remains, for the OP's sake and those reading, if the B series somehow bypasses the laws of fluid dynamics and will not benefit from proper ITB's/plenum ITB's as opposed to the Skunk2 manifold, or any manifold
08-07-2014, 05:56 PM
#55
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Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
To be honest, I can't recall seeing many B-series race cars that had ITBs on them, all that I have seen have manifolds or versions of a manifold/plenum with one or two throttle bodies on it.........now I'm really trying to remember seeing one with ITBs but I can't think of any in the last couple of years anyway.
08-07-2014, 06:14 PM
#56
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Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
i think a properly tuned ITB will always show more hp on a dyno. to get them to work at the track though, the proper airbox will be needed.
that being said, generally.. a manifold will be a better choice for most street/mild race applications. Tracer said any ITBs will do except for TWM. I disagree. I think the ONLY ITB that will be worth it is the Kinslers because they are the only ones that allow you to properly tune the length and diameter. TWM, Jenvey, TOda, OBX .. will not offer that, and will keep you under 52mm.
so OP ,depending on your budget, i would go VictorX under $500 ... Ultra Race under $1000 , and Kinsler ITBs if you have $2000+. lol (make sure you get an airbox/scoop for the track)
that being said, generally.. a manifold will be a better choice for most street/mild race applications. Tracer said any ITBs will do except for TWM. I disagree. I think the ONLY ITB that will be worth it is the Kinslers because they are the only ones that allow you to properly tune the length and diameter. TWM, Jenvey, TOda, OBX .. will not offer that, and will keep you under 52mm.
so OP ,depending on your budget, i would go VictorX under $500 ... Ultra Race under $1000 , and Kinsler ITBs if you have $2000+. lol (make sure you get an airbox/scoop for the track)
08-07-2014, 06:59 PM
#57
Anti-GDD White Knight Simp
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
i think a properly tuned ITB will always show more hp on a dyno. to get them to work at the track though, the proper airbox will be needed.
that being said, generally.. a manifold will be a better choice for most street/mild race applications. Tracer said any ITBs will do except for TWM. I disagree. I think the ONLY ITB that will be worth it is the Kinslers because they are the only ones that allow you to properly tune the length and diameter. TWM, Jenvey, TOda, OBX .. will not offer that, and will keep you under 52mm.
so OP ,depending on your budget, i would go VictorX under $500 ... Ultra Race under $1000 , and Kinsler ITBs if you have $2000+. lol (make sure you get an airbox/scoop for the track)
that being said, generally.. a manifold will be a better choice for most street/mild race applications. Tracer said any ITBs will do except for TWM. I disagree. I think the ONLY ITB that will be worth it is the Kinslers because they are the only ones that allow you to properly tune the length and diameter. TWM, Jenvey, TOda, OBX .. will not offer that, and will keep you under 52mm.
so OP ,depending on your budget, i would go VictorX under $500 ... Ultra Race under $1000 , and Kinsler ITBs if you have $2000+. lol (make sure you get an airbox/scoop for the track)
Actually Kinslers with an airbox will be more around $3,000+-, but I guess if you want the best....
The only reason I can think of all these B series running manifolds is that price is a big factor. B series is, after all, the "budget" build when compared to H and K series, generally. If you can save 2-2.5 thousand dollars while sacrificing only so much horsepower....it's very cost effective to go with the manifold
08-07-2014, 08:15 PM
#58
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
How many B and H motors do you see racing - of any kind - with ITB's? Compare how many are used today vs. how many were used say, 4 years ago. You would find more then than you would now.
I remember when Full Race went through the designing process of their intake manifold. They did several tests on different designs before settling on the design they did. And if I remember right, they did experiment with an ITB/air box set up and decided to go a different route.
Joe McCarthy developed his intake manifold for K motors and have some of the FF guys having great results with it.
Didn't Larry W. have something to do with the design of the AIR intake manifold too?
That should tell...someone, something.
08-07-2014, 08:47 PM
#59
Anti-GDD White Knight Simp
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
That summed this whole damn thread up.
How many B and H motors do you see racing - of any kind - with ITB's? Compare how many are used today vs. how many were used say, 4 years ago. You would find more then than you would now.
I remember when Full Race went through the designing process of their intake manifold. They did several tests on different designs before settling on the design they did. And if I remember right, they did experiment with an ITB/air box set up and decided to go a different route.
Joe McCarthy developed his intake manifold for K motors and have some of the FF guys having great results with it.
Didn't Larry W. have something to do with the design of the AIR intake manifold too?
That should tell...someone, something.
How many B and H motors do you see racing - of any kind - with ITB's? Compare how many are used today vs. how many were used say, 4 years ago. You would find more then than you would now.
I remember when Full Race went through the designing process of their intake manifold. They did several tests on different designs before settling on the design they did. And if I remember right, they did experiment with an ITB/air box set up and decided to go a different route.
Joe McCarthy developed his intake manifold for K motors and have some of the FF guys having great results with it.
Didn't Larry W. have something to do with the design of the AIR intake manifold too?
That should tell...someone, something.
Umm can't find anything on Full Race making any products for N/A motors. They don't even make that manifold anymore, and it was for turbocharged cars.... did anyone try to go N/A using their turbo manifold??
Joe McCarthy's design is sick. If I remember reading right, he utilized wave tuning the manifold much in the same way exhaust manis are wave tuned. That is the only manifold design that may stand up to plenum ITB/top feed ITB performance, to my knowledge.
08-07-2014, 09:58 PM
#61
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
My cuz in puerto rico has a 99 ITR and just got TWM itb's and has been tuning them but when he went to the dyno it came out with a lower reading then his full race manifold. the hp was 217 with the full race manifold and 204 with the TWM itb. he said he loves the sound of them but needs delicate tuning for them btw he's using haltech (its really big in PR). NOW my question is has anyone used them b4 and what was the difference from the manifold to the itb's????
Originally Posted by joemccarthy
We dyno tested an engine similar to yours when I was developing my K-series intake manifolds. 87.5mm x 99mm, 12.5:1, Cartel Stg. 4 cams. It made 318 HP with a Honda Manifold and 360 HP at 8,300 rpm with my 8.5 model. I kept the intake pipe long to hold the HP peak down to 8,300.
The 9.0 model is approaching full production status right now, and the 8.5 model should be ready in about 6-7 months. Both will be available with side or central mounted T/B, but the easy-fit side entrance plenum hurts the HP some because of the uneven air distribution. About 8 HP from the testing we did. 80mm is all you need T/B-wise. We didn't see any HP gain going to 90mm at just 2.4 liters.
We also saw a 16.5 HP increase over 2.5" Kinsler ITB's on a 2,188cc engine we tested using my 9.0 manifold, and a 45 HP increase over an RBC manifold on that same engine. A bone stock K20A went from 238 HP to 283 HP with the 8.5 manifold. That's 45 HP. On the first pull without ANY tuning it went to 265 HP.
On two of the larger (around 2.6L) engines we tested that were already using the Hayward designed IPS manifold mine made 20 more HP at a lower rpm, and that spells more torque.
The 9.0 model is approaching full production status right now, and the 8.5 model should be ready in about 6-7 months. Both will be available with side or central mounted T/B, but the easy-fit side entrance plenum hurts the HP some because of the uneven air distribution. About 8 HP from the testing we did. 80mm is all you need T/B-wise. We didn't see any HP gain going to 90mm at just 2.4 liters.
We also saw a 16.5 HP increase over 2.5" Kinsler ITB's on a 2,188cc engine we tested using my 9.0 manifold, and a 45 HP increase over an RBC manifold on that same engine. A bone stock K20A went from 238 HP to 283 HP with the 8.5 manifold. That's 45 HP. On the first pull without ANY tuning it went to 265 HP.
On two of the larger (around 2.6L) engines we tested that were already using the Hayward designed IPS manifold mine made 20 more HP at a lower rpm, and that spells more torque.
Car reactted better to this type of manifold setup.. It took in more then 40% MORE fuel all over vs the itbs.. the power was carried higher too.. The midrange was too sick to even talk about.. this car had no traction with the itbs as it was.. its worst now.. and i loved itbs..
)
08-08-2014, 03:49 PM
#63
Anti-GDD White Knight Simp
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
Well of course a well built manifold will beat out TWM that's a little different, using a full-race product for N/A..
Do you happen to have a link to that thread? I'd like to look at it (even though we're talking about K series now instead of B series)
The only discrepancy I have is whether the Kinslers were really optimised for the set up. Also I doubt it used a plenum or top feed injection, but I do know that McCarthy and the IPS design do often use a kind of top feed injection, placing the injectors much farther back from the stock location, which would make a huge difference. Nevertheless, I do think that manifold design could possibly reach or out perform an ultimate ITB setup, but the testing just isn't there.
It would be awesome if I could eventually test that manifold vs ITBs on my H series, but unfortunately I have no plans to ever go H2B, which would present impossible clearance problems, it looks like
that's a little different, using a full-race product for N/A..Do you happen to have a link to that thread? I'd like to look at it (even though we're talking about K series now instead of B series)
The only discrepancy I have is whether the Kinslers were really optimised for the set up. Also I doubt it used a plenum or top feed injection, but I do know that McCarthy and the IPS design do often use a kind of top feed injection, placing the injectors much farther back from the stock location, which would make a huge difference. Nevertheless, I do think that manifold design could possibly reach or out perform an ultimate ITB setup, but the testing just isn't there.
It would be awesome if I could eventually test that manifold vs ITBs on my H series, but unfortunately I have no plans to ever go H2B, which would present impossible clearance problems, it looks like
I can't think you and Josh enough for all the work you guys have done for me so far.
08-16-2014, 09:09 PM
#67
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
when I look at that manifold that piston is working on it almost makes me want to see how would it work with a single 105mm tb attached to the front of the manifold out of the front bumper or the out the hood for an H. The velocity stacks created would increase the speed and possibly build a 1.0 psi in there. That's something the NA would actually like to see happen. I am curious to see what the psi difference it is.
08-16-2014, 10:46 PM
#68
Anti-GDD White Knight Simp
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
when I look at that manifold that piston is working on it almost makes me want to see how would it work with a single 105mm tb attached to the front of the manifold out of the front bumper or the out the hood for an H. The velocity stacks created would increase the speed and possibly build a 1.0 psi in there. That's something the NA would actually like to see happen. I am curious to see what the psi difference it is.
I have recently had this same idea for the H series as well! But using ITB's, of course. Been thinking of designing some plenums that do exactly or similar to what you're describing...
08-18-2014, 07:31 AM
#69
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
There are manifolds (for the K series) specifically for that, they have been mentioned on this very page (hayward performance/ISP).
I have recently had this same idea for the H series as well! But using ITB's, of course. Been thinking of designing some plenums that do exactly or similar to what you're describing...
I have recently had this same idea for the H series as well! But using ITB's, of course. Been thinking of designing some plenums that do exactly or similar to what you're describing...
08-18-2014, 04:08 PM
#70
Anti-GDD White Knight Simp
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
How is randy's intake set up, is it like a K series facing forward? That is a very cool idea, I hadn't thought about making a custom plenum for this! I think, rather than "double venturi", it'd be more like "ram air x venturi". Regardless, very good velocity/psi increase as you said. Oh wait, this is what F1 cars do, only with ITB's instead of velocity stacks....
Had to rub that in I'm sorry I'm sorry
Had to rub that in I'm sorry I'm sorry
08-18-2014, 08:34 PM
#71
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
its something like this. The one that's on cody's motor is a a little wider overall, but you can get the idea from this thread of how the custom upper plenum might be great for this.
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...y+owens+intake
yes yes f1 blah blah lol..
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...y+owens+intake
yes yes f1 blah blah lol..
08-18-2014, 10:02 PM
#72
Anti-GDD White Knight Simp
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
Oh ya I saw that car on facebook. Thanks for sharing that. I'm all for that ram air mani. You may get one set of numbers on the dyno with it, but you know that HP will increase at 100+mph. If there's one thing I've learned from that, it's that the skunk mani should be just right for my build right now lol
08-19-2014, 03:38 PM
#73
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
This is what I am trying to explain, that yes they had made one for an H it would be good to try with a custom upper plenum. The ram air effect would increase substantially in the ram section of the runners compared to using a stock lower ported manifold. The only problem that I see is really going to be the issue is the way the runners point. The stock manifold opens upwards, while the sk2 opens aft.
08-19-2014, 03:53 PM
#74
Anti-GDD White Knight Simp
Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
This is what I am trying to explain, that yes they had made one for an H it would be good to try with a custom upper plenum. The ram air effect would increase substantially in the ram section of the runners compared to using a stock lower ported manifold. The only problem that I see is really going to be the issue is the way the runners point. The stock manifold opens upwards, while the sk2 opens aft.
09-30-2014, 02:54 AM
#75
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Re: Skunk2 Ultra Race vs. ITB
some v8s use 40-ish mm throttle bodies, so I dont see how 51 is too small for a 4 cylinder. How does anyone here pick a size to run with? Is there a magic number? Does lobe center have anything to do with itb size? What about valve/throat angle sizing?