boostaholic

B16A dyno at .8bar


B18B dyno at .8bar


I think what some people are really overlooking is the hoopla of peak HP. Sure high peak whp is good, but you've also got to remember that most people with LS motors are only revving to 7300 opposed to B16 which spin up to atleast 8200rpm. If you look at both dyno's above, the b16a makes 190wtq at redline and i'm making 200wtq, and my LS motor makes a lot more torque earlier in the rpm band. If i had a strong enough valvetrain to take my LS motor to 8k i'd make approx 290-295whp before peaking out. Only thing good about the b16a motors in my opinion is if you have the right sized turbo the torque will still build to like 9500rpm, so you'll have really high peak whp numbers. Before putting in my LS motor, i had my stock b16a2 motor in at 12psi also, and i have to say the LS motor feels a lot stronger especially punching it from a lower rpm. With my b16 it felt like unless it was in vtec and full boost it didn't pull as strong. All in all, i think it's pretty much comparing apples to oranges with the b16 and LS motors. Both will make good power and have its ups and downs, just go with what fits your wallet.



[Modified by boostaholic, 5:26 AM 2/10/2003]

UberTeg

nice boostaholic, glad to hear from someone who had both with similar setups. My vote goes to B18 cuz theres no replacement for displacement Not even forced induction can totally escape this reality

simple4012

im surprised no one here has mentioned some of the things that motors have over eachother. Oil squirters for one. Ls doesnt have em and in the long run it could make a difference. I personnaly think a b16 would be a better choice. thats my opinion.

BTW whoever said that the ls tranny is better for boost and "that everyone knows that" should be banned for wasting my bandwidth.

JDMs1eeper

B16 and most Vtecs have oil sqirters because they are are revvin the **** outta them to make power. b18s dont need to be revved high to make power, so therefore why would they need oil squirters?? If they needed them for the redline Honda would have built them to have oil sqirters. I still would choose b18 anyday or a tuned b20

bretx0r

no replacement for displacement

Smashback

I'm pretty sure the be all end all of B series is the B18C sleeved and bored to 84mm. Is there any other combo out there for B series that can beat it?

That being said, I can't afford a B18C, or at least I refuse to pay 3500 for the swap. In the end I will probably stay full B18B1, but who knows, I might just slap a B16 head on it someday.

Either way, you shouldn't be faster with a taller geared tranny. There's no sense in that. Enless it takes you a long time to complete a gear change, you will be accelerating quicker with shorter gears, which translates to lower ET's.

xrtdac

Is it me or does this whole Vtec non Vtec fight continually keep going forever or what?

ahobbs

10-20lfbs torque does make a difference. Damn that was stupid. I could see if you said 2-5 but 10-20....come on. B18b all the way. All my friends that have stock ls and they race a b16 motor always win. B18B all the way except when your looking for 450+ I would still just get a b18c

UberTeg

The VTEC ricers cant get over the fact that their b16 isnt the ****. VTEC does not decimate all y0, unless of coarse its a b18c

SilverDc2

i know this is a bit off the subject but, my friend is selling me his garreta t3/t4 turbo kit with the fuel management system. and i was wondering if i could keep my a/c. he has the turbo on a b16 and i have a 97 integra gs it should bolt on right? thanx.

BudaKai

WOW, this thread went a long ways since I last looked at it. Some people seem to be forgeting that turbo sizing has a lot to do with power out-put with these little azz engines. Of course you can slap the biggest one that'll fit the manifold and pray you can spool it and make decent power. I would take both though and make an Ls/vtec. I believe it's a set-up very worth the money. For street use though I would go with the, I don't know it would depend on what car I was doing it for. Integra would be Ls. Civic would hae to be a B16a2. It's all relative anyways.

ImportReview

I think people are arguing backwards on this thread. I cannot for 1 second believe anyone, who knows anything about Honda would say a stock LS motor will be faster than a stock b16A at the same boost level.

I don't know what de-education alot of people have been enrolled in but:

1) torque down low = a BAD thing for traction.
2) Torque UP HIGH = a good thing.

In other words, its ALL ABOUT THE HIGH END HORSEPOWER. Whatever motor has more average HP in the powerband will be faster in the same car.

End of story, no argument, absolutely, REMEMBER THAT!

HP wins, NOT huge torque numbers.

YOu could have all the damn low end and mid torque you want, but if your average HP is lower in the same car, you lose.

Now we take B16A. It is going to peak a good what? 1500 RPM higher than an LS motor stock? It doesn't take rocket science to figure out which one is better.
look at this graph:


that is an LS motor WITH AFTERMARKET CAMS and special IB treatment on it...NO VTEC....and it makes 250+ @10 PSI. You can see at 5.5 PSI, your well over 200 WHP.

If you have not understood my point yet, here is more....

NOTE: AFTERMARKET CAMS, aftermarket intake manifold, aftermarket etc...

its not stock. we are talking stock VS stock for those of you that failed to read what i wrote originally....

YOu can modify an LS engine to be just like a VTEC engine in its cam lobe size, its intake manifold, etc....

So you can have an LS engine that behaves and acts like VTEC, yet its called b18a/b.

This is my point. With unlimited money or a good budget, b18a/b will kill the b16a. OF COURSE. Because all that money is making it have characteristics of VTEC motors!!

Somebody PLEASE bring me a STOCK b18a/b motor, totally stock, with a drag gen 3 turbo kit, and DYNO it before my eyes and show me it beats GSR motors or B16A motors bone stock turbo'd with the same kit.

Answer: you won't becuase it does not exist.

So there you go, some truth to this debate that got into a stupid argument between ls motors with aftermarket everything, or a few parts to STOCK VS STOCK, from which this argument was supposed to be about.

education over, now I have de-educated your de-education. or whatever. YOu know what i mean!

lol.

Jeff

MatT3T4

Kinda late here, but I will throw in my $0.02...

Personally...I am a B16A *****...

1) Price. COMPLETE B16A swaps can be had for $1100 in general, sometimes less than $1000.

2) Availability. There is an over-abundance of B16A engines...thus making spare parts, or replacement parts, very easy and inexpensive to come by.

3) Strength. Like the rest of it's B-series brothers, it is quite stout, and can handle a great deal of power with stock internals...over 300whp easily.

4) Cylinder Head. The cylinder head breathes a little easier than the rest of it's B-series family. Along with this, it has a single-runner intake manifold, and a strong valvetrain capable of running up to 9,000rpm safely (my personally tested and abused limits).

5) Compression. The B16A has a very boost friendly compression ratio of 10.2:1...not too high, and not too low. Boost comes in relatively early and fast, compared to the B18A/B20 engines...and the compression is not so high that it would require water or methanol injection to combat heat.

6) R:S Ratio. The rod:stroke ratio of 1.74:1 is nearly ideal according to some tuners, and is partly responsible for the high safe redline.

7) Blah blah blah blah blah...

A lot of people talk about compression...compression compression compression...you should all know where I stand on this. For a STREET CAR...the stock B16A compression is GREAT! It is not so high that it becomes a pain in the ***, and it is not so low that it takes forever to spool, or get going...

I also saw that someone mentioned something about B16A torque. Well, considering that we are ADDING a turbocharger to the engine, I would say that this does add a great deal of torque.

On my old B16A...on a very conservative 10psi (with an old turbo that needed a rebuild), I made 240hp and 180 torque at the wheels. This is with LOWERED 9.0:1 compression. I probably made closer to 270whp on stock internals at that same boost level.

There are so many more reasons that I choose a B16A, but I don't have the time to get into them. In the end, both motors are great, but the B16A shines...Whatever you can get your hands on easier really...

shermanyang

iTrader: (1)

i'd still take the b18 over the little b16 anyday. excluding the trannies and comparing the two motors, the b16 only makes high peak hp. while the b18 has a wider power band. meaning it would have the ability to climb faster to it's peak hp. now, let's add to both motors, the b16 tranny. which one do you think would really take all? b18 of course. now, slap turbos on to both of them, which one do you still think would take all? b18 of course. nuff said.

DIRep972

iTrader: (1)

how is anything u wrote above related to stock vs. stock? u posted a dyno of an LS u built w/ throttle body and cams that doesn't make ANY more power then my car w/ a completely stock motor.

actually, a flat torque curve is the best for traction and acceleration. The turbocharged honda powerband is inherantly bad for traction. Sudden increases in torque is what makes these cars so hard to luanch. think about it jeff, look at a supra. Try luanching a single turbo supra and then try luanching a corvette Z06. The fact that these cars are RWD is not important, whats important is the powerband of the two cars. The Z06 has a flat controllable torque curve from 2000-7000. the supra has no low end torque(which according to u is good for traction) and a huge torque increase in torque @ 4500. same reason a JRSC gsr cuts 2.0 60's on stock tires and guys with turbo gsr's can barely cut 2.2's.

Thats my argument on the LS, I dont see how u can use that for the b16a. LS has more area under the curve, You are backwards if u think a B16a has more area under the curve then an LS.

did u miss these dyno's?




both these cars are @ .8bar. peak power for the B16a is 283, peak for the LS is 277.

i took 5 points on the LS' is power curve and avg. them
5000-225
5500-255
6000-270
6500-277
7000-275
avg. hp = 260.4

then 5points in the b16's powercurve.
6000-200
6500-230
7000-240
7500-270
8000-283
avg. hp = 244.6whp.

DAMN! that sucks doesn't it. The LS has 15 more avg horsepower accross the powerband. I guess Peak power doesn't mean everything.


hehe, exactly.

actually, I think you didn't read what you wrote. because that car is not stock. and that car didn't make more power then a stock motor anyways.

1. no one EVER said the B18B/A would make more power then a GSR.
2. I would totally volunteer my car for that experiment, but its too bad I live in Texas. My car would be perfect because it is a completly stock LS motor. stock cams, stock valvesprings/retainers, stock intake manifold. STOCK STOCK STOCK. all it had was a revhard kit and exhaust. stock timing, stock injectors, fmu/inline fuel pump and stock revhard kit w/ tial wastegate on the dyno below. it shoudn't be too hard for u to find a dyno of a b16a w/ the same exact set up. I have seen many and they are dynoing the same peak #'s but with alot less area under the curve.

heres my dyno. http://www.imagestation.com/mypictur...g&caption=8lbs

now i have hondata and it made 274/237 w/ only about 18 degrees total timing and 12psi. much more room for improvement in tuning alone.

my main argument between the B16a and the LS is that for 1) the b16 and LS w/ identical set ups make very similar peak #'s. The b16 will generally dyno a few more peak hp but will lack as much area under the curve(avg. hp) the LS has. and 2) this is on equal boost and not taking into account what happens when u max out the boost on the b16a for pump gas; the LS still has 3-4more psi to go.


oh yeh, bench racing is fun. hehe



[Modified by DIRep, 9:24 PM 2/10/2003]

UberTeg

Tell that to the WS6 that just kicked your ***

And the B18 will make more torque i nteh high end too! The only reason the B16 will put up similar (usually slightly higher) HP figures is cuz it revs higher!

wickedxboi

i think its really preference.

UberTeg

My prefer to go faster and have less turbo lag, therefore I shall keep my b18b

Lastgsr

glad for my b18c1

Smashback

Chris, I have never known a better bench racer than you. Seriously, I don't think anybody can read a dyno chart and translate it to real world performance as well as you.

Damn, I though you were just a kid too


[Modified by Hatchblack, 6:22 AM 2/11/2003]

SiRkid

*sigh*
I dont whats with all the bashing of the b16 motor lately..its happening all over..as if the b16 has become a pile of ****.

bottom line is..the b16 is a better motor than an ls..stock for stock..you cna argue this and that..with one set of dynos... with a car that has this turbo and that turbo but at the end of the day the only thing the b18b has over the b16 is the 0.2L of displacement.
the b16 is better everywhere else and is more than the Ls could ever dream of being, stock! remember that! next time I run a 15.0 in my 00 Si (N/a) with i/e(full interior, street tires) itll remind me that I need a b18b and when I run a great time when im turbo itll remind me that I shouldve swapped for a crappier engineer'd piece of equipment.


[Modified by SiRkid, 6:30 AM 2/11/2003]

tony1

[QUOTE next time I run a 15.0 in my 00 Si (N/a) with i/e(full interior, street tires) itll remind me that I need a b18b and when I run a great time when im turbo itll remind me that I shouldve swapped for a crappier engineer'd piece of equipment.


[Modified by SiRkid, 6:30 AM 2/11/2003][/QUOTE]

That's all fine and dandy, but you remember, next time you run a 15.0 in your si that it was because of a closer geared tranny and not more power. Also remember that an ls motor with intake and exhaust with a b16 tranny would have run a 14.8. The b16 was designed for road racing where it is very good. You don't need torque so much in road racing. Torque is a necessity in drag racing...

DIRep972

iTrader: (1)

I don't want my posts to make it sound like the B16 is a pile of ****. Its a great motor and if u know what is great about it u can exploit its advantages and make more power and have a much faster motor then an LS. Im just on one extreme ur on the other.

stock vs. stock w/ turbo I still feel the b18b is better and im still waiting for someone to post a dyno of a bolt on drag3/revhard b16a that has more area under the curve then my LS does. i can supply 3-4 more LS dyno's just like mine to back it up as well.

SiRkid

you make good points about road racing etc..but I totally disagree with you about an ls with shorter tranny running faster.
UBER teg.as for that ws6....its called RWD.. super spoolage power plus lots of low end on a fwd honda = instant tire smoke!
anyways..this can be argued till we all die..its gonna go nowhere.
i dont hate the b18b... the b16 a better engineered piece stock imo and I dont know how you could argue that.
as for area under the curve direp...its all in the turbo sizing really...
there are lots of variables.even a 2 cars.. teg and ciivc(b16) with say drag kits, still have different turbos, do they not..

tony1

Oh, you believe that long gears are better bullshit. You've got alot to learn....