gringotegra

Well now i can offically call my car a green car!

Got i tunned on E85 lastnight...no Dyno yet...just a street tune...seemed to pick up some hp for sure!!! spins in gears it didnt before

96 GSR-T

E85 around me has creeped from $3.45 to $3.50, but premium is in the $4.20's. The price spread is not high enough to have any savings with these current prices. I just tagged/insured my car and filled it up today and I am going to take note of my mileage. I put 110 miles on my car yesterday running 19-20lb boost, had a 2 1-4 race's with a 76mm Supra, and about 4 more WOT pulls and the rest normal driving and I did not burn a half tank of E85. My AFR's cruising are 14.8-15.2 but I cant monitor EGT's as my gague took a **** on me for some reason, but I have no worries about it. I tried running around cruising in the 16.0's and it did not like it very much, but seems real happy the way it is now.

gringotegra

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">E85 around me has creeped from $3.45 to $3.50, but premium is in the $4.20's. The price spread is not high enough to have any savings with these current prices. I just tagged/insured my car and filled it up today and I am going to take note of my mileage. I put 110 miles on my car yesterday running 19-20lb boost, had a 2 1-4 race's with a 76mm Supra, and about 4 more WOT pulls and the rest normal driving and I did not burn a half tank of E85. My AFR's cruising are 14.8-15.2 but I cant monitor EGT's as my gague took a **** on me for some reason, but I have no worries about it. I tried running around cruising in the 16.0's and it did not like it very much, but seems real happy the way it is now.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

thats strange that your car didnt like it in the 16's...we were shooting for the 16's for my car because i drive 50 miles a day...it didnt seem to mind it there...as far as price...man E85 is expensive over where you are!! its $3.09 when premium is $4.34 ....

96 GSR-T

It ran ok around 16.0 but I could hear a decent amount of light throttle popping that does not occur at the same load but at 15.0 AFR, car also feels jerky around 16.0

I put 100 miles on my car tonight, and I have more than a half tank but less than 3/4. Driving was definately spirited so I would guesstimate 20mpg roughly, all stop and go and few full pulls here and there when there was room.

gringotegra

well after filling up this weekend i have put about 135 miles on it and i still havent reached 1/2 tank yet!!! im at like 5/8ths of a tank....

96 GSR-T

Some useful info I found of the web, copy;d and pasted from a Subie Site......

Where can I buy E85?

Distribution is currently a problem, it is most available in the mid western states, but there is a concerted effort to get an ethanol fueling infrastructure built, it just takes time, and recognition by the gasoline vendors that there is a market. Marathon oil has already added E85 to their formal product line so things are moving in that direction.

Current high fuel prices can only help that process, as will lots of people calling up gas stations and asking them when they plan on pumping E85 for FFV's.

E85 already contains inhibitors and such to minimize corrosion, and most of the problems with ethanol usage were solved 20 years ago when most of the country moved to ethanol addition to gasoline following the oil crisis in 1973 and high oil prices that continued up until 1981.

Where can I buy E85
For information on distribution points check out:
http://afdcmap2.nrel.gov/locator/FindPane.asp
http://www.e85fuel.com/


How about fuel mixtures for E85 what is needed ?

The one interesting thing to note is that the stock pig rich mixtures at WOT on the stock ECU of the WRX are very close to max power mixtures on E85 blends. If you play with the blending ratio to find your magic number you can take advantage of this by giving the car a fuel blend that is max power rich at stock ECU WOT mixtures. *** just take your time and work up the blend slowly ***

After a few folks have dyno runs on various blends we can probably pick out a "best starting point" blend that will get you very close. We could also work out the other supporting mods to make best use of E85 for minimum cost.

It basically takes about a +30% increase in fuel flow to get the same equivalent mixture with E85 that you had with gasoline.

For example an adjustable fuel pressure regulator can increase your effective injector flow to partially compensate for the fuel changes.

As mentioned above, lean is still a bad thing, and with alcohol fuels due to the higher power levels a serious leanout is more lethal. With conservative mixtures alcohol actually burns so cool that on E85 FFV there is some concern about getting the cat to light off.

If you sneak up on a fuel blend slowly you should be just fine. I would venture to say for the near stock folks, up to 30% is probably safe as long as you give the ECU a few miles to make the major part of the fuel trim accomodation before you start beating on the car. You'll know when the ECU starts to get happy as the midrange torque is noticably better.

I also strongly suspect that a well tuned car with no cats can probably pass the emissions sniff test on high E85 blends.


How does ignition timing change on E85 ?

Timing on ethanol blends will not change very much. MBT timing for both gasoline and E85 are very nearly the same at light to moderate engine loads. At high engine load the E85 will want just slightly more advance. The big difference will be fuel/air mixture. The E85 will give improved torque with much richer mixtures than gasoline. Both gasoline and E85 will give best thermal effeciency at about 15% rich of stoich, so the equivalent of 12.78:1 on gasoline would be about 8.5:1 on E85, but E85 will continue to give better torque numbers up to about +40% rich of stoich or 7:1 mixtures, so on a utec you would want to richen up your WOT high load cells and add a tweak of timing to get the most out of E85 from what I've read.

Quote:
Are you sure you don't mean that E85 will allow more advance?

Just passing on what I've found in the various sources. Logically you are correct, but one source says simply that MBT timing is the same for E85 and gasoline, and another report says at low loads the E85 and gasoline like the same MBT timing but at high loads MBT timing for the E85 is slightly more advance.

I suspect this is due to them not running ideal max power mixtures but cannot confirm it. Burn speed for E85 changes quite a bit with mixture, so if they were just a little bit lean or rich of ideal the burn rate would be lower.

Lots and lots of variables not well covered in some of the sources and in general they are focusing on emissions issues not max power torque so that would incline them to use less than best power timing advance. In a couple of the reports they also had limited control authority over timing and may not have explored the extremes very thoroughly.

what data is available on combustion speed for E85?
Just about a year ago (2003), I was finding conflicting information on alcohol fuel burn speeds and contacted The National Renewable Energy Lab here in Denver, they did a search and could only find a couple of references on it, one that showed ethanol fuels burn faster, so the literature is not very rich in data on the subject. Most reports are not entirely applicable to our needs like tests on lawnmower engines and alcohol fuels have some significant limitations

Still digging for info but that is my best information at the present time.

The report that mentioned the slight increased advance requirement on heavy load E85 fuels was :

"Final Report Control of Exhaust Emissions from Small Engines Using E-10 and E-85 Fuels"
http://www.michigan.gov/cis/0,....html
http://www.michigan.gov/docume...7.pdf


On page 12 it says :
"Tests were conducted to assess the impact of MBT ignition timing on fuel economy and exhaust emissions. The spark timing was varied until the least advanced timing was achieved for the maximum torque for a given setting of the engine throttle. The A/F ratio was adjusted to achieve near stoichiometric operation. ... " The MBT timing for E-85 fuel was a few crank angle degrees advances compared to E-0 fuel when the engine was delivering high loads, typically 100 - 75%. Not much difference was observed at lower engine loads."

I'm assuming that this explains the timing change as they were using what would be closed loop fuel mixtures on the WRX. So in load cells that would continue to use closed loop fueling you would want to have slightly more ignition timing than you would with gasoline. In the case of WOT open loop fueling where your running a max power rich fuel mixture, I very strongly suspect the fuel burn speed would be noticably faster, and you would use less ignition advance than on gasoline and reap the benefit of less negative work on the late stages of the compression / early period of combustion prior to TDC.

In a power point presentation presented by the EPA at the SAE Government and Industry Meeting in Washington D.C. on May 13, 2003 titled:

"Ethanol-Gasoline Blends: Fuel Economy and Emissions Benefits"

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presen...3.pdf

On page 9 of the presentation is a nice chart comparing laminar burn speeds of gasoline and Ethanol.

It shows the following burn speeds:

Mixture fuel/air---- 1:1 ------------ 1.1:1

Gasoline --------- 26 cm/sec ------- 30 cm/sec (max about 31 cm/sec)
Ethanol ---------- 41 cm/sec ------- 45 cm/sec (max value)

Clearly at +10% - +15% rich mixtures where ethanol shows max thermal effeciency it burns significantly faster than gasoline. Which could be quite important to a very over square bore engine like ours!!


what is the ideal fuel air mixture for E85

If you are tuning with a wideband O2 sensor you will want to switch it to Lamda mode to get valid fuel air mixtures with blended fuels. If you can only get gasoline AFR's, simply divide the gasoline AFR's by 1.5 to get the true AFR for 100% E85. If running a partial mixture you can make proportional changes based on the percentage of E85 in the mix.

Here are some comparisions of stoichmetric fuel mixtures for different fuel blends:
======== stoichmetric AFR ===== max power rich AFR
Gasoline ---------- 14.7:1 -------------------12.5
100% E-85 ------- 9.73-9.8:1 ------------- ~ 9:1 - 8:1
100% fuel ethanol - 9:1 ------------------- ~ 7.2:1

One source specifies that the proper fuel tune (stoich) for a VW Golf running 22% ethanol was 12.7:1 (this reference was probably from the Brazil tests)

Ethanol reaches max torque at richer mixtures than gasoline will.
Using a 99% ethanol mixture MEP increases with mixtures up to 40% excess fuel where with gasoline MEP is reached near 20% excess fuel. Over all thermal effeciency for both gasoline and ethanol is reached near 15% excess fuel.

E85 burns faster than gasoline at best mixtures so it is an inherently more effecient fuel. It also produces more exhaust gas for a give weight of fuel air mix giving higher average cylinder pressures inspite of lower EGT's. With streight E85 in a properly tuned car its good for about +5% power / torque increase. I suspect on a turbocharged car the benefit is larger.

My source lists stoich for E85 as 9.8:1 ( "Burn rates and emissions from ethanol gasoline blends" )
http://www.engin.umd.umich.edu...c.pdf

Here's a little reference chart I whipped up when I was working out my dyno numbers.


Code:

Fuel AFRst FARst Equivalence Lambda
---- ----- ----- Ratio -----
=======================--====================================

Gasoline stoich 14.7 0.068 1 1
Gasoline Max power rich 12.5 0.08 1.176 0.8503
Gasoline Max power lean 13.23 0.0755 1.111 0.900

=======================--====================================

E85 stoich 9.765 0.10235 1 1
E85 Max power rich 6.975 0.1434 1.40 0.7143
E85 Max power lean 8.4687 0.118 1.153 0.8673


=======================--====================================

E100 stoich 9.0 0.111 1 1
E100 Max power rich 6.429 0.155 1.4 0.714
E100 Max power lean 7.8 0.128 1.15 0.870


=======================--====================================E85 fuel ethanol content seasonal changes

E85 fuel blends change content seasonally just like all gasolines blends change with the seasons. This seasonal change in blend for E85 is primarily to improve cold weather starting, where the changes in gasoline during cold weather is to improve cold weather starting. In the summer months, gasoline must be blended to reduce vapor lock and to reduce evaporative emissions.

The recommended dates for changing E85 fuel blends are listed in a chart in the E85 handbook on page 22, which is in the "E85 Fuel Specification" tab.
The Volatility class specifications are broken down on page 10.

Volatility class 1 --- minimum ethanol 79%
Volatility class 2 --- minimum ethanol 74%
Volatility class 3 --- minimum ethanol 70%


http://www.e85fuel.com/pdf/ethanol_guidebook.pdf

As you can see each region has a different start date and recommendation for seasonal blends depending on local weather climate.

Here on the high plains east of the rockies in Colorado we run the class 1 fuel blend from mid June -- mid Sept, run class 2 fuel from mid Sept -- mid Oct and run the class 3 fuel blend from Mid Oct -- mid April, then back to the class 2 blend from mid April to mid June. The standard only specifies a minimum ethanol content, vendors can run higher ethanol content if it is economical. If it is cheaper for the fuel blender to add more he can. Ethanol content is bottom line driven by local weather conditions, and cold starting problems for local drivers just a gasoline blends are modified to give easier starting in cold weather.

In the Southern part of Texas they would never go to a class 3 blend, and in Wisconsin, they would only have the class 1 blend for about 2 months in the summer. In Florida they would be on class 1 almost all year long and in North Dakota and Wyoming and Montana, they would be on class 3 almost all year long.

Power available on E85

Many sources make a big deal about E85 having less thermal energy per gallon that a gallon of gas. They frequently draw the false conclusion that you cannot make more power on E85 than you can on gasoline. E85 actually has a higher specific energy at stoichiometric fuel air mixtures than gasoline, and at proper max power mixtures releases more thermal energy in the cylinder for a given amount of air to burn. Since an internal combustion engines power output is primarily air supply limited this means you can make 5% to nearly 30% more power on E85 than you can on gasoline.

(edit 6/10/08) Current experience shows turbocharged cars like the WRX and DSM families can run upwards of 30 psi boost on E85 tunes without knock. The only case I know of where knock was logged was on a 500+ whp DSM running 35-39 psi boost!

Ethanol specific energy at stoichiometric fuel air mixtures is actually higher than gasoline allowing a higher release of energy per lb of air burned than gasoline.

Typical gasoline Thermal energy 19,000 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 12.5:1
Typical E85 Thermal energy 13,475 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 6.975:1
Typical ethanol Thermal energy 12,500 BTU/lb 6.429:1

If you are consuming 100 lbs of air, lets see how much fuel energy you release for each of these fuels using gasoline as the base 100% reference.
100/12.5 = 8 lbs of gasoline @ 19,000 BTU/lb = 152,000 BTU = 100%
100/6.975 = 14.337 lbs of E85 @ 13,475 BTU/lb = 193,189.9 BTU = 127% more heat energy
100/6.429 = 15.555 lbs of Ethanol @ 12,500 BTU/lb = 194431.5 BTU = 128.9% more heat energy

Typical fuel energy contents:
gallon of gasoline = 125,000 Btu
1 gallon of ethanol = 84,400 Btu
1 gallon methanol = 62,800 Btu
1 gallon of gasohol
(10% ethanol, 90% gasoline) = 120,900 Btu
1 gallon of E-85
(85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) = 90,500 Btu
1 gallon of kerosene or light distillate oil = 135,000 Btu
1 gallon of middle distillate or diesel fuel oil = 138,690 Btu


My long term average on gasoline was 24 mpg, my milage on the same setup on E85 was 22 mpg, my current milage on gasoline is about 22 current mileage on E85 is 18 mpg.

Current setup upgraded turbo-
gasoline mileage 22 mpg = 5682 BTU/mi
E85 90,500 Btu /gallon / 18 mpg = 5028 BTU/mile (daily driving with periodic high boost acceleration)
E85 90,500 BTU/gallon/ 19.3 mpg = 4689 BTU/mile (driving mostly off boost as daily commuter)

Old setup stock turbo -
gasoline mileage Gasoline 125,000 Btu/ gallon / 24 = 5208 BTU/mile
My old setup, @ 92% of gasoline milage or 22 mpg
E85 90,500 BTU/gallon/22 = 4114 BTU/mile

A 5% increase in engine power is common on NA engines with minimal conversion changes, and much higher numbers are possible if compression or boost is used to take advantage of E85's higher fuel octane.

The energy balance question

Some sources say that fuel ethanol requires more energy than it returns is this true?

No not really based on recent studies using very detailed analysis of actual energy inputs currently used, in modern farming and state of the art ethanol plants the numbers come out as below. Note that gasoline actually delivers less energy than was expended getting it into your tank.
It has a negative energy balance. Which is exactly the claim the anti-ethanol lobby is blaming fuel ethanol with as a good reason not to use it.

=====================
Fuel ethanol returns:
+31% (**** - 2002)
+34% (Shapouri - 2002)
+21% (Graboski - 2002)
Fuel ethanol with state of the art production techniques can return +68% (**** - 2002)

Gasoline energy balance (GREET V1.6)

Conventional gasoline -19%
Reformulated Gasoline -20%
MTBE -33%

===========================

http://www.mda.state.mn.us/ethanol/balance.html

A USDA study released in 2004 found that ethanol may net as much as 67% more energy than it takes to produce. Argonne is one of the US Department of Energy's largest research centers.

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/349.pdf

http://www.agriculture.com/ag/...g1001

Report on the new study :

http://www.ncga.com/public_pol...y.pdf


http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html

The cellulose based ethanol production will actually return nearly 100% energy because it will use its own waste product stream for process energy.

Using the cellulose based process also eliminates the argument that more land will be required to grow corn than is available. Fact is many crops can be used to brew ethanol.


A list of common production sources of the above include.


Corn
sugar cane
Sugar beets
wheat
tapioca
potatoes
rice
barley
molassas
fruit
whey

It can also be commercially prepared from cellulose treated by enzymes. Sources include:

sawdust
waste paper
scrap rags
alge
grasses (switch grass)
crop waste

==========

We're not talking about the total substitution of ethanol for gasoline, but a concerted effort to displace as much as possible. The U. S. is already the worlds second highest consumer of fuel ethanol behind Brazil. Every barrel of fuel ethanol burned replaces 3/4 of a barrel of petroleum on a energy content basis. At current oil prices nearing $70 per barrel that is a significant amount of money payed out to U.S. suppliers for a commodity instead of to foreign suppliers. Given that money rolls over 5-6 times in an economy before it get sequestered in a long term capital investment, that means $350 dollars of net benefit to our economy for each barrel of fuel ethanol consumed vs a negative $50 of loss of revenue to the overseas supplier.

Yes I know that much of that money gets passed through the hands of U.S. companies but the end point is still the overseas oil producer.

Even more important, the energy inputs for fuel ethanol production are in large measure low quality heat requirements that can be met with domestic sources of energy which we have in great abundance, like Coal or waste heat from other processes.

How does fuel ethanol rank on Green housegas production ?

Using E85 you have a very favorable green house gas production picture. The CO2 produced when burning the ethanol portion of the fuel is totally recovered by the next seasons crop. This is the definition of a renewable fuel.

In short your "Net" green house gas production is only 15% of what it would be on straight gasoline. That is the equivalent of getting 6.7 times your normal gas milage.

91civicDXdude

just a quick update for some haters... with the cost of corn rising so high (which of course has nothing to do with transporting it at 4.75 a gallon for diesel right? right? /sigh), most corn farmers ARE NOT receiving subsidies any longer. Guess what? Ethanol is selling for $2.20 a gallon here from the distillery to the oil companies. They are blending gasoline to it and selling it for close to $3.20 a gallon. Sounds like oil companies are the ones controlling the prices, not energy consumption or some other bs line. don't forget the .51 cent blender credit oil companies are getting for using ethanol in their gasoline. So, they are buying e98 for $1.69 a gallon without subsidies and making mega profit off it. What happened to the "when the subsidies run out, ethanol will be $8.00 a gallon" talk?

RacerStev

Besides adding 30-40% larger fuel jets is there anything differant with
E85 and Nitrous Oxide? You would think the 2 would work well together with
the cooler EGT's that E85 gives you..

Steve

gringotegra

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacerStev &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Besides adding 30-40% larger fuel jets is there anything differant with
E85 and Nitrous Oxide? You would think the 2 would work well together with
the cooler EGT's that E85 gives you..

Steve</TD></TR></TABLE>

I dont see why it wouldnt work...

quicksilver1689

you gave us no info on the setup, nice looking curves i guess lol.

JayWest

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacerStev &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Besides adding 30-40% larger fuel jets is there anything differant with
E85 and Nitrous Oxide? You would think the 2 would work well together with
the cooler EGT's that E85 gives you..

Steve</TD></TR></TABLE>

Anyone have anymore info on this?

Why are the larger fuel jets needed?

Turbogixxer

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JayWest &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Anyone have anymore info on this?

Why are the larger fuel jets needed? </TD></TR></TABLE>

E85 has less energy per monocle. So you need more

gringotegra

E85 is pretty cool stuff...if any of you can get your hands on E98 then you will know what really cool stuff is....its hard to find but my tunner gets it and loves it for the track...but you use closer to 40-50%more than pump gas....not worth it for a daily driven car though...

i dont know what everybody else is getting in MPG right now but im getting about 22-24mpg ..

96 GSR-T

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gringotegra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i dont know what everybody else is getting in MPG right now but im getting about 22-24mpg .. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I averaged 20-25, depended on how happy my foot was.

gringotegra

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I averaged 20-25, depended on how happy my foot was.</TD></TR></TABLE>

the 24 is with a happy foot

cbustuner

quick questions...How much power do you think 850's and a walbro 225 hp pump will be able to handle?

I'm hoping for maybe low to mid 400's(405-450) on about 23-25 psi,Sound safe?


Modified by cbustuner at 6:09 AM 7/31/2008

gringotegra

yeah i think they might do low 400's but you might be cutting it close...i know my tunner is at 507whp on 1200cc injectors on his evo...ive got 880s in my car...im at like 350-370whp... the **** is pretty much like C16 so i wouldnt worry about the boost level really... if you can get your hands on E98 then you will know what real power is...that **** makes more than E85!!

.CUBISH.

my all motor b20vtec seems like the AFR around 14.2-14.5 ish cruising... and 12.6-12.8 at WOT

89civic1.8T

I just got done with my E85 conversion on my 2jz 240sx. I have had nothing but problems with fuel leaks. The first two leaks were my fault didn't tighten the fitting properly but with my real problem is the injector O-rings. They were fine for about 20-30 miles of driving but start to seep and then leak pretty bad. It seems the O-rings I have don't hold up to the E85.

angel_i

With no tuners for hours away, is it safe to run e85 in my LS motor and be "safe".

Dartanian

It doesn't matter what fuel you run, you still need a proper tune to be safe.

jdm602

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by angel_i &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With no tuners for hours away, is it safe to run e85 in my LS motor and be "safe".</TD></TR></TABLE>

by all means it'll be way safe with e85 on your ls. but without a tune for e85 its pointless.

if you ran e85 on your pump gas tune, the motor will run like ****. that is if it even will run. you use way more fuel with e85, which is why you need bigger injectors in the first place.

Nite_2nr

So im going to be doing an E85 set up over the winter. The only question that I really have is about my fuel rail and regulator. I have the AEM Fuel rail and regulator will the E85 eat the aluminum on them?

96 GSR-T

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nite_2nr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So im going to be doing an E85 set up over the winter. The only question that I really have is about my fuel rail and regulator. I have the AEM Fuel rail and regulator will the E85 eat the aluminum on them?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Absolutely not, I left E85 in my system for 6 months using the AEM rail and reg over the winter and they were perfectly fine in the summer when it came time to run the car again, no oxidation or anything. Good luck with the corn.... its the ****

airwalk07143

I ran 11.2 mulitple times in my dd teg. We are putting down around 500whp daily on E85. It does burn it alot quicker though which decrease gas mileage. e85 is down to $1.99 here!