Bugermass

Big motor VS Small motor timing with nitrous is all about power density and total cylinder volume. 1.8L 4cyl at 150shot is about 37.5 HP per cylinder with a perfectly balanced setup. On a 7.0L V8 18.75 HP per cylinder.

Now add the next factor which is bore size. Your AVG V8 427 will have about a 4.25in bore. While a stock B series is 3.0625in ..

Optimal ignition advance is primarily affected by Bore Size,Flame Speed and RPM..

427 BORE = 14.7 Top Of Piston Area

1.8L B Series = 7.37 Top Of Piston Area

(obviously total cylinder volume is a factor, but the idea is there)

So not only do you have double the amount of nitrous per cylinder, but you also have HALF of the total area that the flame has to travel, AND you have a more efficient head/chamber which increases flame speed. Add all these things together and it becomes very obvious why you need much less timing advance on a smaller motor when using nitrous.

These same principals also explain why bigger motors are more tolerant to knock and can get away longer with crappy tune ups without killing the engine. There is more total area to absorb heat, and any spikes in pressure such as a knock event is spread out across a larger area.

Bugermass

If you want it reliable, just use a good quality race fuel.

And I disagree with whoever said straight methanol was bad. The reason people have issues with straight meth when doing a water meth kit is because they don't use enough meth. If you do 100% meth, you cannot tune your fueling like a gasoline car otherwise you will be LEAN as far as the meth is concerned. You must first have a good gas tune in the car, then you need to run the meth as Rich as you can go before you start loosing power. Tons of people make 3000+ HP on 100% methanol.. There is just a lot of bad info about how to tune it.

If you are going to use water meth as a crutch and don't want to run $$ race gas, you'd be better off using Methanol as your fuel source on a WET setup.

What I mean is, run your nitrous direct port and WET, build you a small fuel system with a small tank that's for the nitrous only and use M1 or M5 for nitrous fueling. Just be sure you use the right amount. Methanol is a BAD *** fuel but you must run enough of it. Spraying it as your fuel side on a WET kit will give you very good results.. Just be sure to use big enough jets and run it RICH!! It will not kill your power as early as gas does when its rich. It has KILLER cooling effects and will make good power if used right.

bauergold

I would agree that methanol isn't a bad fuel, it just isn't the best fuel for nitrous.

The top guys running nitrous, and I mean pro V8 stuff, are not limited by fuel and they run gas, not methanol. That at least tells me something.

GoldLudeRay

defentially agree....with my ls dd teg I really don't care much about it lol....the car is a rusty piece lol...when motor goes...tiger jap b20 is going in lol...the longevity of the car so far has far exceeded my expectations for a non tuned car on just water inj with the amount of spray going through the car...it has one .54 nitrous nozzle and one .28 nozzle...the .28 nozzle is just a zex dry shot....the whole system is hidded both the wet nozzle and dry nozzle are way to far back the intake path cuase I try to play the car off as n/a lol....bottle is hidden everything is hidden...I even have the water nozzle line going to the evap canister to play it off as im keeping the car emission's...

bauergold

Love the sleeper aspect.
I always hid my kits too. Makes people go, why the hell is that car so fast? lol

Bugermass

And a lot of them still run carbs too, what does that tell you

bauergold

Pretty sure they don't run the nitrous enrichment fuel through the carb.

So why would that matter?

Bugermass

It was sarcastic comment about how a lot of the V8 stuff is behind the tech curve in general.

HAVideos

yes yes and yes. what I was trying to say, only better

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

You Honda-Tech guys really keep it real. There are alot of well informed tuners here. For the thousands that are just reading through, thank you too for your interest. I really like the fact that you do your homework.
I wanted to talk about the perfect motor for a minute;
The perfect motor would be able to perform on demand to any situation. It would be able to be daily driven, produce all the torque needed at anywhere in the power band. It wouldn't have to be reved to death to yeild a massive return of horse power. It wouldn't need to run on exspensive race fuel or need a team to keep it going every race. And yeah, it should also be a Honda.
Well, I'll bet there are a couple more points to list but they sould cover this concept well enough.
Now, how does this apply to a nitrous thread? Nitrous is soo good at what it does (add more O2) that people just get carried away. They blow motors, break parts, crash cars etc.. All for the sudden and exhilerating rush that follows it's activation. So addictive, that most will start from scratch and go again after a failure! Believeing that somehow they can change the formula (odds) and be victorious once more. Then boom! Are we all stupid, why do we suffer? Our motors are solid foundations. Our cars are solid platforms, light and docile. Our tuners are the leaders of the pack. That big shot is such a scary proposition that only a few brave souls dare. Why?
It is because, the nitrous components that you are using are stone age relics. WHAT! How dare I! You have been dooped by the powers that be (big business) and found wanting. Wanting a system that is safe, developed for our motors and designed properly, powerful, programable, affordable, and full of new technology to bring power levels to new heights. They have responded to your years of addiction with new stickers and stone age product lines, fancy names for injectors and solenoids; but have not put an ounce of new technology in their revamping. Why would anyone use a solenoid system when some fail with as few as 10 activations, leaking and filling your motor with nitrous until you start it up and boom! I know that some are going to dispell this claim, that's life. You may even have a business selling this junk to us, shame on you. Endless solenoid rebuild kits, spare solenoids, dozzens if not hundreds of jets to keep track of, fancy on the outside/ **** poor flow on the inside fittings and manifolds. And only just recently, a small line of controllers that are undoutedly the true future for nitrous,( I wonder where they got that idea?) but attached to their stone age garbage can not be used without much of the same prior results. Them's some fighting words, I know. But we can begin a REASONABLE and PATIENT discovery to explain the facts.
So where to begin? Let's begin at the end, with the jets.

The jets themselves are the very biggest reason your systems break motors and parts. These stone age (SA) components are cumbersome at best. The whole system is made to work *** backwards because of them. You see, when you use a jet to regulate nitrous, you are playing with fire; unless you are only using one for all cylinders, and even then distribution (another topic all together) is sketchy at best.
Picture this:
You set your SA (see above) system up to hopefully produce a 100hp shot; and EVERYTHING you can imagine will effect this setting and produce a different result. None of which you can change with their SA crap; so you change the jets again and again. Don't forget to check your plugs, don't forget to change your timing, don't forget to put the jets in the correct location on the injector! And on and on. OK, so your that good. You got it figured out for that ONE day at the track and you still have a SA *** backwards system. When you activate the system say above 3000 rpm, you get the big KICK IN THE *** they've been advertising to you that is the stupidest way to apply power to anything! An instant 100hp hits the axles and tires; if your lucky they turn and not burn. Then you get going and the rpms climb and your motor uses twice as much everything above 6000rpm; but your 100hp shot gets thined out all the way up until you shift again. The fact that these jet systems work at all is incredible. Think for a moment; if you saw a 100lbs weight and had to move it across the street, would you run up to it full speed and instantly grab it, tossing it 50 feet! Muscles don't work like that. You have to get a firm grip first, feeling your fingers and stance to bear the load. Then gradually apply the power to move it. If your muscle was instantly called to release a massive power stroke you would tear it or worse, the ligiment/ tendon. Your car is freakishly similar and can't stand to do it very long either without fail. These jetted systems all operate with this SA principal. So you break parts, think you did something wrong, go back for more; over and over. All the while the nitrous guys (sellers) are ready to sell you more. Don't you deserve more? Don't you wish a system existed that could do the job right?
If you didn't have any jets, you could control the exact ammount of nitrous at ANY speed and even better, for each gear! That would really be high tech and kinder on your ride. Placing the power EXACTLY where and when you need it. All the way to the finish line. Heck, if the flow of nitrous was so precise and instantly controllable; you could even have a closed loop AFR. That means your O2 sensor could detect a perfect mixture with a window of operation and keep your motor safe. And best of all, since you could control the torque output anywhere in the power band, you could just shift at 7500rpm where you motor will live a very long life.
Sounds to good to be true, doesn't it. But it's not.

GoldLudeRay

agree'ed that solenoid nitrous stuff is very old school...a injector style of spraying would be very kick ***...the problem with companys making this style of system is that it's gonna be expensive...muscle car guys with big cube's aren't gonna get this in detail with there huge motors that already make 2000hp sometimes on just motor...and the turbo/supercharged guys just need a small amount...

it's new stuff and new stuff is expensive im not sure the companys will be on board....im a beliver in the theory that power is power...I also belive heat in the chamber when controlled right helps make more power...like you said nitrous usually hits so hard so fast heating up the chamber that parts break, or you don't get the full use of the shot by being really rich....usually the limit we have all seen is around 500-600whp in are Honda's and those are the bigger shot guys....at 600whp that isn't enough to play with some of the 900plus whp turbo Honda's......a injector smooth ramp of tq and hp might be able to help Hondas support more power and much much more realible....good stuff

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

This is a very good time for nitrous and new system configurations. There are several (as I am in contact with) real innovators in this arena right now; some offering top notch components and some are top secret still. Either way you cut it, any high power system will be unlike everything you use now.
It isn't that you can't make power a whole lotta different ways and nitrous has to be exploited; it's the nature of mankind to achieve greatness where there is no need! We do because we can. Systems have to change, really change to become safe and powerful. I don't think that nitrous users are trying to put ANYBODY in their place (2nd) to them; only perpetuate their desire to bottle up the experience. I also don't think this is a better than turbo thread. Without the interest in turbo charging, our sport compact world would have been just interesting instead of ground breaking. I do believe that the potential for high power nitrous systems is too good to be divorced from the scene. And recent innovation/innovators have opened the door to the next generation of champions.


...like you said nitrous usually hits so hard so fast heating up the chamber that parts break, or you don't get the full use of the shot by being really rich....


I don't think that was the implication. The heat is a natural expectation of increased combustion mixtures. The fuel mixture is what holds the potential to create the heat (BTU) and produce a pressure pulse (MEP) and the ignition system initiates at the EXACT moment in crankshaft degrees the pressure pulse. A few degrees too soon and you loose power, lots of it, and sometimes preignition breaks the motor apart. It is the advanced ignition timing (incorrect setting) that brings preignition to the party. When you ignite the fuel before the piston is at top dead center, a calculatable pressure (based on fuel type) is sharply begining to rise. This only slightly opposes the already moving piston because the fuel needs time to burn and the mass of the rotating assembly keeps things moving along (kinetic energy). At the point where the piston is just passing TDC is the most dangerous time for a motors existance! If let's say the ignition system was 4 degrees too soon, the full brunt of the pressure pulse becomes a pressure spike! This spike is formed (DETONATION) because the chamber volume decreased so rappidly while the piston reached TDC that the internal cylinder temps skyrocketed (BOILS GAS LAWS) and spontaniously ignited fuel in other parts of the chamber not yet burnt to produce an opposing wave of pressure (the spike origins). All this happens when the piston is nearly perpendicular to the connecting rod! It would rather pound your bearings straight to death, break you connecting rods or push your crankshaft right out of the motor. When every cylinder participates in this barage against the rotaing mass, the rotating mass always looses.
Though, if the ignition is lit off as it were, in the correct moment for the load against the rotating mass; the pressure pulse is allowed to grow just slightly before TDC and when the cylinder compresses the fledgling explosion it will rapidly increase the heat and when this occurs you can burn any fuel faster. It is when this critical moment is syncronized with the rotating mass that at just after TDC (around 12-16 degrees) is the perfect angle for the maximum torque to be achieved because the piston is begining to travel downward, the connecting rod has created an angle of attack and the crankshaft is positioned to maximise the duration of the pressure pulse (maximum torque). Also, when you really get traction and your motor seems to bog down just a little and the load slows the rotating mass a fraction; the timing is still in the same place and detonation occurs rapidly durring gear changes with an already uncontrolable nitrous shot all out combining with the poor geometry as it is actually to break the motor.

I am aware that the fuel mixture with these systems are able to change, but didn't imply that they were yet. There is soo much to inform the unaware of that a discussion about mixture inconsistancy is best for a bit a little later. Let's allow this jet discussion to produce some fruitful conversation and get to the injector problems next.
Also, being really rich would protect the combustion process alot because liquid fuel will carry away gobs of heat and reduce the tendancy to create a pressure spike. Although you can't make much power with a rich mixture, it is safer by far than a lean one.

Bugermass

http://www.noswizard.com/nitrous-con...7h0j63m4tbk7k4

DDTECH

Chris D explaining what I didn't wanna lol.. gj brother!

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Bugermass, You are the first to have guessed correctly!

I have been collaborating with Trevor Langfield (owner of WON) for over a month now and just TODAY, I purchased the first cusom made REVO kit ever made for a Honda B20B in the US. I feel so privilaged to have been able to recieve this system. He will not sell REVOs to most people, they are his crowning achievement to 35 years of nitrous research and developement. Trevor has such a passion, as do I for nitrous. His creation (REVOs) are gaurded, and not going to be sold to a know it all or mastermind type. This is his legacy I believe and from what we were able to exchange about them; he intends to only sell them in the "best light" where they are understood and used exactly the way he designed them to work. This is so people that would readily try to say that His REVOs were the cause of some failure, can be eliminated from his hard earned success. This system has broken long standing reccords (UK) for pro comp bike and is on the heels of several more reccods as we speak. Beating the turbo bikes in the same class!
The system I purchased from Him has every bell and whistle you can imagine and 20 you probably never thought of. The best a nitrous system can be right now has been achieved by Trevor at Wizzards of Nitrous. He has put soo much skin in the game that the US sellers/fans try at every turn to make His achievements look marginal or kookie. He invented the NANO system years ago. He invented the first pulsoids 30 years ago! His pulsoids have NEVER had a single failure and have a lifetime warranty.
The US companies have been trying to keep this guy off the radar for years. The future is here now, and it's REVO! Good luck keeping this a secret any longer, I'm gonna tell everybody.

GoldLudeRay

wow that's some sick looking stuff WON!

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

While I was on the topic of jets, I will continue.
First, you must understand that nitrous oxide liquid is unlike any liquid fuel (oxidizer actually) being used in combustion engines. Though Liquid petroleum gas (LPG), AKA propane and compessed natural gas (CNG) do have similar qualities because they are liquids under high pressure. Also we are desperately trying to keep nitrous a liquid until it reaches the INTAKE PORT. This is a very tall order actually. Nitrous has the desire to stabilize rapidly under pressure, that is to say it actually boils (at a very low temp) until a normalizing pressure is reached, let's say 950psi.. This goes on inside the bottle and everywhere else in the system that a cavity is, direction changes in flow, delivery tube changes in ID, port restrictions in solenoids, nitrous distribution manifolds etc.. This phenomenon is called phase change. In a closed system with specific sight glasses inserted (like older AC systems on cars) in the liquid line; one can observe the evident and perilous boiling occur at an alarming pace. It doesn't take long to realize a problem exists and has no very easy solution to remedy. In fact, it is so critical that nitrous remains a liquid prior to injection that nearly ALL system irregularities can be liked to this phase change phenomenon. Like chasing a ghost, you recalibrate endlessly, then the bottle temp changes, then the something else changes; it's maddening!
While we look closely at the jets, you can assume that they were in fact designed to flow a liquid through a calibrated orifice; not a mixture of bubbles and liquid. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that there WILL be problems with flow through such an orifice with this combination. And to add insult to injury, the jets are a universal type orifice that truely introduces a final blow as it were to your system.


Look at the picture on the left, can you see the large .175" cavity that leads to the orifice. The orifice is actually not drawn but is located at the bottom of the well. The photo on the right shows the drastic change in ID that occurs. Boiling nitrous (actually very cold) is not going to pass through this orifice without a fight! Rapid temperature changes and violently expanding liquid produce a fist fight in this arena that will last as long as the liquid can not reach a stabilizing pressure, which means the WHOLE time the system is flowing. This phase change is going on and on everywhere in the system and is the culprit that kills motors in fact. There is no way to stabilize it with poorly selected fittings and solenoids and distribution manifolds. If, in fact, one were able to ACCURATELY measure the differences between nozzel flow under these conditions; you would undoubtadly have your criminal. Since these are also acting like a pressure limiting device as well as a flow restrictor, internal fluctuations in the systems lines and fitting are effecting the jets ability to perform. In a liquid system (hydraulic) all the effects at one point are felt on every point in the active system, this is chaos! And yet, we try to tune this out with formula changes that will never overcome their influence. The system must go. The jets must go. Even with a progressive controller and a jet limiting system like this, how do you think it would respond by further fluctuations in flow? Unpredictably I assume. Keeping nitrous a liquid is a tall order, but can definately be achieved with EXCEPTIONAL planing and component selection. Don't get mad at me if you think that you'll be the one to tune these stone age systems, get mad at the designer that full well knows these phenomenons exist and continues to pedel them. I'll be nice, maybe they all don't know, but they should by now; considering such a system exists today that eliminates jets and fully controls the liquid path throughout until injection. Do I have your attention?
REVO: Rotary Electric Variable Orifice

Bugermass

I actually just talked to Trevor through email. I've used his pulsoids on a couple cars now with great results. Everything down to the bottle valve is top notch design and quality. I have yet to try the Revos but I am anxious to try a set.

K20EF8Dx

Bravo Tyler

Trevor's technology has been out for some time now. I too may have to pick up a Revo and start with some bench testing.

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

When you consider the jetted systems that have gotten us here this far, it is natural to procede to develope a truely progressive system (not staged) that will protect and apply gradual power to our sensitive drivetrains. Albiet, these will introduce many new components that will monitor and protect your investment. Because, many of the nitrous users today are not going to invest in the knowledge and debate on system creation; I assume that this is a small crowd that is reaching in this direction. Any significant gains in this area will indeed propel nitrous newcomers and performance enthusiasts to use nitrous; especially once components and systems become commonplace.
For the reasons mentioned in prior posts; this is the future of system creation. It has arrived and is being used succesfully. These are the equivilant of an entire ECU based additional fuel system now. The days of the Mad Max button push are nearing thier end in performance HP systems; thanks to innovators and designers of superior equipment. There will be remnants of the old days no matter how good things get, and many will suffer to continue in that direction.
My hope is that we will be the wave of succes that advances the application of high power nitrous use. This REVO system is being applied to a fully built B series motor in a Delsol. As things move along when the motor gets back from Golden Eagle; I will be posting details and pictures of this ADVANCED design and layout. It will probably be at least 4 months before a full install (motor and system) can be tested. So let's continue to talk on system design.

MugenSpeclNY

in for results on the del sol and also info on water/meth injected through the fuel side of a wet shot nitrous system.

0KStuned

Does this count as big?

1SiC 3DR

Would make for a beautiful clean install, an if bottom mounted like I think, would make for a sneaky setup.

bauergold

Looks cool!
Doesn't really look like anything new to me though?

K20EF8Dx

Looks good Reid. Good to see Kaizenspeed is playing with things in this department also. that would be a great kit. although i would highjack the wet nozzels for a second stage and pulse both stages.