bauergold

I love nitrous!
The true limitation in my opinion is the size of the motor.

What we need to find is another molecule that lowers cylinder pressure more effectively than nitrous oxide. This is the reason why we use nitrous oxide and not just straight oxygen.
Advanced chemistry will be the real answer after fine tuning all of the equipment.

What do you guys think?

K20EF8Dx

I just caught this thread. I like a lot of what you have to say Tyler. I too have a nitrous plan but until i do it i cannot give anything away. I will be implementing ideas off our Nitrous Pro Stock car into my DA and testing my limits.

bauergold

Good to hear! Hope to see more honda guys play with nitrous.

There is great potential here.

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

The motor size plays no important role in using nitrous really. If I understand you correctly, I assume you mean that ultimatly you can only produce X ammount of power with this size motor (2.0L) in it's mechanical limitations. That means IMO, that we should be able to reach an upper limit of say 1000hp total NA/nitrous. Now, hypotheticaly, if a nitrous injector (direct port liquid) in the combustion chamber (say through a special spark plug) would come into existance; than no turbo application could ever be BETTER as the heating and cooling of air and all of the equipment needed would be obsolete.
You see, even though a nitrous system blows tons of pressurized fuel and nitrous into a manifold; if the motor can not breath it in, it's not making more power. That is the edge, at this moment of turbos, it pushes past the pumping limits of the motor and fills cylinders.
But we (nitrous users) do have a tool that helps us to fill cylinders; it's called cam overlap. The very brief period that the exhust is still open and the intake begins to open is where I believe that the greatest gain with injection systems can be seen.
Here is a little history lesson about exhaust if I describe it correctly. The GMC diesel motors of the 60/70s used ROOTS type pump to suck the exhaust out of the diesel motors which increased their pumping efficiency alot. These exhaust pumps were the first really big blowers which were also used to push air/fuel into race motors for decades to come. Famous companys like BDS, Weiand, ect. made tons of blowers from these basic exhaust pumps.
I believe that most of the pumping losses on the exhaust if improved, would propel the nitrous systems efficientcy greatly.
Got any ideas on how to evacuate an exhaust system to produce a slight vacuum that would help fill cylinders?
This is still a bandaid though that would add system weight equal to a turbo setup. The REAL best approach would be to develop the first in cylinder liquid nitrous injector, which may be sooner than you think. Some outboard motors are allready using them for very high pressure (1500psi) fuel homoginization. This would change evrything about nitrous short of the bottle and lines. No solenoids, switches, regulators, failsafes etc. Just precisely injected ammounts of nitrous, after the intake is closed (no backfires) into a cylinder at the exact correct time. Computer controlled like a fuel injector with adjustable duty cycles for any desired HP the motor can handle. Real user tunability.


Advanced chemistry has produced the most oxygenated fuel around. This doesn't mean that we can use them regularly. Nitromethane is extremely dangerous and must be mixed before each run. If I remember correctly, it has more O2 than nitrous per molecule.
OXYGEN must NEVER be used near combustion engines! Do a quick google and you'll see the record of deaths and experiments gone wrong. Gaseous O2 is not safe, bottle pressures are high. Liquid O2 is stored in a dewar. This is a special vessel designed with an outter chamber that supports an inner chamber of liquid O2 under lower pressure! The outter chamber has a complete vacuum drawn on it to reduce thermal transfer of heat into the O2 from outside enviroment. These are huge containers. The only vehicles that I know of that use liquid O2 are rockets (space shuttle). Please understand what O2 is and how it's stored, before you ever think about using it.

PS. lowering cylinder pressure reduces mean effective pressure that can be applied to the piston to rotate the crankshaft. If we can controll the mean effective pressure of a cylinder at any given point in the power stroke, like with the liquid nitrous injector; than a much more effective and useful pressure can be produced at the exact moment that it is needed for power production. With these Honda motors, that is around 12-16 degrees after top dead center of the power stroke.

K20EF8Dx

Reading this only means we are on the same page although my method will not need a modified spark plug


You are on the right track

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

So glad to see some serious interest in the thread. K20, all I can say is lets collaborate of at the very least, good luck my fellow innovator. I am not actually building this direct port injection system now, but know that it is the way for future extreme mean power.
The very state of the art right now is REVO.
Look into this and spend a couple of days on their site. There is soo much information and you will be surprised to know that every other staged nitrous system is already obsolete, jets too. Old habbits die hard, like the motors they put them on.
Closed loop AFR, computer control for progressive nitrous is the future until the injector comes along. That is what I believe anyway, got any other great ideas?
These are an example of the Yamaha HPDI injectors that are essentially 700psi units that will fit into a normal injector location, just not a combustion chamber without alot of thought.

Bugermass

WON has some really good products, I've used them on a couple cars with great results. I do a lot of boosted/nitrous setups. Nitrous and turbos go great together. Nothing like a 200shot dry to get a turbo up to 50PSI of boost damn near instantly lol. I'd have to say the biggest problem with nitrous is delivery. Old outdated technology. I only run nitrous dry now, that way there is never any chance of the fuel not being there. The ECU I've been using the most lately, monitors bottle pressure real time, has a ign retard VS bottle pressure, as well as automatic fuel compensation. With this combination I NEVER have nitrous issues. Before that, I would use wet kits with a dedicated fuel system for the nitrous. Biggest problem is the old *** cheap junk solenoids tend to fail quite often. Leaving you without fuel at times and with roasted motors. Nitrous is bad ***, but you really have to be on your game, and your setup needs to be done 100% right or you WILL loose a motor at some point. And most progressive controllers are sketchy because the nitrous and fuel do not increase proportionally with duty cycle, so you always get either rich or lean areas as it progresses in.

Here's a vid with a car I tuned, I have the nitrous setup to engage as soon as he lets off the foot brake. I have a staging limiter set on the foot brake that allows him to go WOT on the foot brake without the car creeping forward, then once he lets off the brake BAM 100shot and boost! lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CS8y...ature=youtu.be

MugenSpeclNY

Heres a thread i made few months ago, no real tech like you wanted but some of the links posted may help fellow noobies reading through this thread such as myself.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/drag-racing-36/dedicated-fuel-cell-dpi-nitrous-q16-vs-c16-vs-no2-3122833/

sorry i cant add any real info, trying to help to this thread anyway i can....

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Here's a vid with a car I tuned, I have the nitrous setup to engage as soon as he lets off the foot brake. I have a staging limiter set on the foot brake that allows him to go WOT on the foot brake without the car creeping forward, then once he lets off the brake BAM 100shot and boost! lol.

I would love to see this vid but it won't run for me. Thank you for the positive input and furthering this discussion along. I totally agree that you have to be "on your game" with these systems, it sounds like you may have learned the hard way. Which older feature do you think is the most dangerous in a nitrous system, in your opinion. And, what would you warn others to NEVER try or use based on your experience? Thank you for you answers.

Throwdown

iTrader: (2)

Anyone remember that power lifter from Tennessee with a crx? ... Cant remember his.name.but he had some sick nitrous set ups on here

b18cRek

I too am willing to push a nitrous build I have in the making nothing nearly as far as you guys nor do I have crazy amounts of time tuning. I would love to attend efi courses have ive always been a DIYer and done my research. My setup im trying to keep simple but to the best of my capability. Im running stock internals 98+ b18cR direct port 100shot and would like to do a second stage 50 shot wet. My biggest concern is not so much the nitrous its self. I want to rely more on the meth inj side of things. Running a direct port meth inj is deff going to be in the works all controlled via neptune and maybe run preogressive not dead set on this yet. Now if there were a way to run meth through a second fuel rail and second set of injectors (obviously injectors would rust super fast and be ruined very soon) control these via a standalone system which duty cycles and firing points could be adjusted. A simple fuel cell with pump could easily be built and pump activated easily as well. The rail would have a return for fuel not being used all this running watermeth. I want to push my limits with this motor which is 150 shot i know with proper tuning and a good meth inj setup this should be somewhat safe. Only spraying on the track.
Loving this thread already!

b18cRek

Im in for this fuel injector type fogger!!!

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

To the best of my knowlege, not much ground work has been done in the direct injector type systems. Not that it isn't the most controlable system, it is of course; it's just that this stuff has so little lubricating properties that system failure occurs rapidly.
Yes, there are methanol injectors produced by several top companies that would work excellently with a long lifespan. Yes, there are custom manifolds that would allow for a seccond set of injectors and a fuel rail. But to the point, there is only two companies that make a dual injector driver ECU that i know of and they are very exspensive total system upgrades. A MOTEC system can controll 8 injectors for this system, though the advantages are not going to at first, outway the cost. Some would even say why try, turbo this, supercharge that. This is true research and takes alot of skin to prove a system.
The thing I think about these water/meth systems is the potential to control cylinder temps. The combustion chamber is VERY forgiving if the mixture is to "wet" and really doesn't begin to reduce power levels at all under 15% total volume. It is a giant, in cylinder, instant radiator that stops parts from melting in it's basic form.
NEVER think about running full methanol, ever. It's highly corrosive, basicly will ignite at any temp spontaniously above 150 degrees without a spark (that's anything under the hood!) and is invisible when it burns. Not a cool thing really. The water mixture reduces volatility and makes the mixture safer to use all around.
What I am saying in laymens terms is, a full strength (15% total volume) shot under extreme nitrous or boost applications is very practical and not difficult with a tuned to your fuel demand system.
Fuel calculators exist on several sites like RC injectors and you can get a reasonable baseline for your max HP in cc/min there. Then calculate 15% of that, then divide by 4 for each direct port and you have a baseline injection quantity per cylinder. Look on the Devils Own water/meth site and find a superior injector (x4) and your system begins there.
I do not in any way wish to discourage any new reseach in the direct injectors that you have suggested, only to give a basic overview of the system and how things cost soooo much more when you build them from scratch. Science is good and it's on our side if we use the numbers and past failures for references and direction for invention.
Let's keep this thread high tech and encourage some to take chances. Real facts can change the way we intend to make power. Dream on my fellow inventors.

b18cRek

Tyler clearly you are a very intelligent person and I do appreciate spreading the knowledge and willing to share ideas. I have looking into some of aquas setups and failsafes as well as devilsowns. Im absolutely planning direct injection if something can be improved I will re design it. Im thinking neptune parameters setup to trigger progressive meth controller which will also output to activate nitrous so there is no spray before the meth reaches pressure and starts spraying as well (hoping this will work anyhow) or run no pregressive meth just straight 150psi and run progressive nitrous to ease into the pill also allowing me to spray in 1st gear (on the track) if you have suggestions or concerns please chime in as you have! Thanks

GoldLudeRay

good stuff tyler....my basic dual nozzle nitrous kit in my 100 percent stock teg is still holding over a 150hp shot with just water in the mix through a meth kit...tyler you know anything about running some nitromethane through the meth kit and pump?

MugenSpeclNY

single nozzle for the water?


also how come people dont run water/meth thru the fuel side of a wet kit instead of fuel?.... idk just something random i thought of and figured this is prob the best place to ask. im assuming the way it sprays? idk lol

edit-
also regarding water injection and i know u were interested in pumpless kits here are some i found just to throw out there (here)
this is out of my price range(lol) i was more looking into their trunk mounted kits for my needs.

Also wanted your throughts on the nozzles they offer(link)

i think the recessed idea could be helpful, your thoughts?

HAVideos

This is just from my limited experience with nitrous. The OG's of this realm feel free to chime in and correct lol. The size of the motor seems to play an important role in the amount of nitrous that is practical to run in a certain motor. In my experience the larger the motor the better. I spoke with a lot of old school guys that use nitrous on big V8 motors and such. guys that have been doing it for years. their rules of thumb, particularly with amount of timing to retard while spraying turned out to be far from what the typical small motor wants. made 167 on the motor and made just under 330hp on a stock GSR with a three stage direct port 150 shot. what we found was the amount of timing the small motor wanted with that shot was significantly less than what a big motor car would use on an equivalent shot (keeping in mind the difference between the number of cylinder difference). we assumed that due to a much smaller bore there is much less area for the flame to propagate across before putting significant force on the piston forcing smaller motors to have to ignite the mixture much later to avoid putting that significant pressure on the piston too early and damaging parts. as long as you give the motor the appropriate timing it wants, everything is gravy. I havnt tested a huge shot out yet, but if we used the amount of timing that had to be pulled on the 150 hit and apply it to a 300 shot, it would be so little timing it wouldnt be worth it. would actually be causing too much heat to survive. so then the battle becomes keeping things cool. seems like the nitrous itself isnt the problem, its the timing we are forced to use due to our small motors. thats just a little tid bit from my nitrous encounters. The three motors ive worked with (all different B series, vtec and nonvtec) seemed to follow the same trend so thats what ive figured out... its tough getting good advice from guys that have gotten nitrous all figured out on the small motor lol.

b18cRek

Regaurding spraying meth as a substitute fuel through a wet kit does sound like a somewhatgood idea however I think noone has done this as the nitrous would freeze your mixture unless it was 100percent meth which is what you do not want. Meth is usually injected behind the nitrous also it would not evenly distribute and you could run into issues depending on the meth. Also I do have a buddy that plays with watermeth with nitrometh mix however he is on a high hp turbo setup and never ever ever goes above a 10percent mix water meth to nitrometh and use with nitrous just seems like a bad idea

GoldLudeRay

im running just a single nozzle of water for my dd sleeper set-up....it has a .54nozzle and .28nozzle....it's one wet kit and one dry kit with just a single water/meth nozzle

b18cRek

What are you saying here or trying to accomplish?

Maybe your seeking advice for your dual stage 200 shot build?
Ive just never been a fan of single meth nozzle setups you will never
Achieve equal distribution and will always have one if not two dry cylinders
That will recieve less meth/water whichever causing that or those cylinders
To run really hot or detonate if relying on your injection setup to make more
Power (more boost/more timing or more nitrous/more timing). As stated above
Timing is key with a big shot small engine and with a correctly setup meth inj
System you can run far more timing/keep iats way down in every cylinder/ and
With the right failsafes have a great peace of mind while running a big shot

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Wow! That is alot of input for just one day. It sounds like there are many trying to get this nitrous to the next level. I have such an interest in this collaboration with you all. I love to hear about your projects too; whatever the budget.

also how come people dont run water/meth thru the fuel side of a wet kit instead of fuel?.... idk just something random i thought of and figured this is prob the best place to ask. im assuming the way it sprays? idk lol

You know, I asked that myself for months now; searching for ant tidbits of data and could only find some meager attemps with no posted results. This seems very practical and I am actually bench testing a direct port water/meth system now. I am setting up the bench test to use liquid CO2 insteadof the much more exspensive nitrous. These two gases are nearly identical but only one will seperate the O2 with a heat increase from combustion.


I am going to measure and document specific jet sizes and system pressures for this experiment. Also it will demonstrate just how atomized the water/meth becomes when introduced with a wet shot at 1000psi. When I have gotten some real facts I will share the data; and since it will pertain to 4 cylinder motors (like ours) the guess work will be removed so tuning can get resolved. I tried to find real data about this, I understand that without the nitrous in these wet injectors, the very small quantity of water/meth pushing through these wouldn't ever atomize to get a full effect. But I am trying to demonstrate that with high pressure nitrous and introducing water/meth as fuel (like these are intended to do) will produce an atomized (like fuel) spray.
The system pressure that I will test with is 250psi at first. The actual flow (per cyl) for say 400HP is about a 1 gallon per/hr injector (63cc/min); which is quite small when you look at 63 cc in a jar and realize your quarter mile pass only took 12 secconds. So, IMO, progressive systems for racing couldn't respond quickly enough with a say 12 seccond time limit. Just my opinion. Progressive is awesome for different boost levels and road racing conditions or just climbing a steep hill like we have around here and you don't want to buy premium. Also, these systems will steam clean the inside of your motor and reduce ANY carbon to fumes out the exhaust in short order, so my system will also have a manual activation button for just that.

I don't believe I have come accross any data that you could actually freeze the water/meth. The mixture has a freezing point of about -20 degrees, but will react with the latent heat of the motor instantly, countering it with it's latent heat from evaporization and add to that; it is being injected into a partial vacuum (intake) which will give it a better kick. Water in itself has probably the highest latent heat of evaporization of any liquid you can spray into an engine. That is why, just water works well; but no octane increase.

I have NO experience with nitromethane except for the pounding my ears get on the starting line watching the top fuel guys. I understand that it has to be mixed before every run and all kinds of chemistry are involved for temp, humidity, compression ect.

That's a long post, i'm not trying to hog the thread, just give some feedback. Thank you for your interest.

b18cRek

Ur setup is going to look very very clean btw!

GoldLudeRay

im running just a single shot in my dd teg...from what I can see from reading plugs is the number four cyclinder is leaner and hotter! but the car is running good on this much nitrous and has been for awhile. just beat a c5 ls1 vette last night. used both nitrous stages 2nd-4th gear. water makes the tunning window very wide...from the yellow bullet guys I have been talking too they are telling me the freeze time of the water and nitrous doesn't happen fast enough as its traveling so fast that the mix hits the chamber before that occurs...im running just 91 and water...but alot really big shot pro mod guys are running q16 with water...it's allowing more nitrous and more timming vs just q16....


the 200shot race car build I have is just an ethonal car...but I have debated going 100 octane with direct port water on it!

MugenSpeclNY

Very interesting regrading using water/meth on the fuel side of a wet kit.(glad i asked, figured it was a dumb question haha) If that is doable that will definitely be the route i would try and take, because i was already pretty dead set on a dry direct with ECU controlled fuel with maybe a single nozzle water/meth or water set-up. I would have really liked to run a direct port meth/water but 12 nozzles into my intake mani kinda sketched me out lmfao(fuel injectors/dpi nitrous/dp meth/water) but now if i can run the meth/water through the fuel side of a wet kit and run ECU controlled fuel omg i would love life!!

In for your testing results!!! Thanks man btw for putting in the hours for R&D, very much appreciated and just wanted to let you know that.

b18cRek

For your teg unfortunetly there is no way to address the issue with cyl 4 running hott unless you play with individual cyl fuel trim (or direct inj meth). You could add more fuel to that cyl only as its prob recieving little to no water. Also if it were me I would run meth/water mix expecially if your only on 91pump I see that it has held up this far which is great but if you do not cool that cylinder down it will cause castrophic damage at some point. You will also pic up some power with a mix vs straight water.

For your race car (again if it were me) I would direct nitrous and direct meth so you will not see one cyl hotter or colder than the rest. This would be most efficient expecially on that kind of shot. Also I would stay 93 pump with meth/water mix colder plug and just start out safe with your tune. Every car I have ever built has been track/daily car so pump gas has always been in my book. Every person has their ways of doing things and im not trying to be negative in anways I just make sure I cover my *** when building a car (so i dont have to build it twice!!).. i really do love this thread and seeing other honda enthusiest running nitrous and willing to push the limits a bit. Post some pics of your setup if you dont mind!!

Also, Tyler did you fabricate those lines with hydraulic fittings yourself or have them made? I have a lengthy piece of -3 braided I want to use for the direct port setup