HAVideos

low goals ensures success lol no i think you may be underestimating the difficulty of making all motor uncorrected power at our altitude (5800-6000ft altitude with a DA usually around 6800-8000ft). imagine trying to make numbers you make around sea level with 2.8 to 3psi less manifold pressure. the most we see around this area is about 80kpa-84kpa. but yes we should be able to meet that goal with this setup without much issue. slapping it on the dyno tonight, so we shall see. ill post how it goes later

HAVideos

Made some progress last night after a lot of headache with failing relays and rewiring.
Black Bean 50 shot
Black BEan 100 shot

videos are pretty drama free and my phone kinda dulls down the sound but its better than nothing.

HAVideos

Finished it up on the combined shot. Did pretty good. MAde 405hp, 299tq SAE. Here is a picture of the curve although its not the final pass....we had to separate the stages so it wouldnt spin, hence the stairway to heaven.


Here is the video of the run.

xohcef

Damn! Good stuff Derrick. Should definitely get down.

bauergold

That car is going to be a blast with 400whp!

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Had some custom made slugs for this build.
Every detail was addressed and applied with a longevity theme.
The top ringland has been massivly lowered to reduce any tendency to crumble or melt in the valve reliefe area. The pistons were Wiesco bare castings with the right silicon blend for strength and heat resistance.
The wrist pin is a custom piece made to endure the most riddiculous pounding with a trade off in the max rpm for the more durable part.
Max rpm IMO will be 8500. The nitrous system is FULLY programable so that whenever the suspension/traction is available, HP can be poured on without high rpm issues.
Custom rods are being employed for the slightly lower wrist pin local. Of course, they are race ready and fully ballanced with this exact reciprocating assembly. The crank being slightly lightened (stock B20) and knife edged is in perfect stock journal condition. I will post up more pics as Endyn sends them. I hope the long block will be finished this month. The block is a fully sleeved Darton MID B18. Endyn believes it to be the finest sleeve system available and has built countless motors useing them.
Wow! This stuff takes time and money. If someone told me I would spend 15 grand to get this far and still not have a tranny or axels, I might well have thought otherwise. Got a way to go and CAN wait for the results. Going to do it right. Not a cookie cutter build, but a reccord breaking attempt to push the nitrous limits of a fully purpose built nitrous B series.
Sure, it'l street as well, but not so much.

HAVideos

Got the car out to the track finally. we had some trouble using both stages in conjunction so we made a pass only on the 100 shot. with how well it did i definitely think i will be revamping the way we go from stage to stage. got some great info. the pass after this one we tried testing a theory... unfortunately i think we hurt the motor pretty bad as a result, but hey thats what testing is for...our usual method worked great and the other method sucked. it was confirmation of our method if anything so im still happy with how the night went. time to fix it up and go for a 10.50 on both kits


That sounds wonderful btw. nitrous by front/rear wheel slip ratio table?

Mojo4president

Glad to see so many people spray Here is a vid of my car ( LS VTEC 100 shot single wet fogger)

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Not all wheel drive.
I could only begin to imagine the system complexity of torque application and difficulty in driving such a small wheelbase in a straight line. Not srs right?
The Wizards of Nitrous Max Extreme controller can do just about everything but drive. New revisions are being developed all the time. This stuff is NOT CHEAP but will offer exceptional protection against system misapplication and what not.
How bad is your motor HAVideos??????????
What was your theory in use?
Nitrous makes everything happen at light speed (combustion, heat conduction,pre ignition), the only thing faster is electronic failsafes. Look into them. They cost alot but save the pony.

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Learn me on some Kuwait.
What are the street/track options in the M.E.?

Mojo4president

I don't live there anymore ( I worked over there for 4 years ) , but i can say the import scene is vast . Many of the world fastest cars Both import and Domestic have come from the M.E ( look up EKanoo Racing, and Q80 racing ) also My good friend Bader Dashti ( Q8boy Honda Tech user name ) has Kuwait fastest SFWD civic. There isn't a local track in Kuwait , the closest is in Bahrain ( Bahrain International Circuit ).

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

My motor is being built at Endyns in Fort Worth. Last time I was there, He (Larry) tells me he just shipped some fully built and dynod Ks to Bahrain for some Prince. He sends alot of his motors there actually. Thought to ask after I saw the plates.
Can you get away with mad crazy street stuff there?

Mojo4president

There is a lot more you can get away with there than the states . Street racing is illegal in Kuwait ,but until 2 years ago or so the cops really didn't waste much time going to the spots where people would street race,but A horrible accident took place ,and I was told they are really cracking down on it now. But as far as speeding on the HWY ,thats is a normal thing. I use to speed past cops on side of the road doing 160 KPH ( speed limit is 120 KPH ) and nothing happens. it's the cameras that will get you . Before I left, I racked up over 1000USD in speeding tickets in 1 month . I didn't know a speed camera was on the street I took for work But there are a lot of people into imports there ,Norris Prayoonto was in Bahrain a few months back tuning a car. It will surprise you how much they are into the sport .. ENDYN aka THE OLD ONE lol does some outstanding work !!!! I still wish I could build a 2.0L like he did back in 2005 that made 298 HP .. What kind of engine is he building for you?

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

He is currently building a B series for this unusual effort to use the largest nitrous system as described in this thread in great detail.
Some really good tech is in this thread about nitrous and it has opened several doors for me in other areas.
A basic rudown of the motor is as follows:

B18B block, with Darton MID sleeves (84mm bore I believe)
A custom head (B16 1992 casting) that is fully described in the previous pages. Very beautiful work!
A perfect stock LS crank, lightly worked (weight reduction) and precisely ballanced
Custom made pistons from Weisco blanks to Larry's specifications (12:1CR)
Undescribably sturdy custom wrist pins for the above
Custom rods (Pauter I believe), Larry has chosen
Endyn fabbed Honda oil pump
Endyn girdle for the crank
ATI drag super damper (the 8" one)
APR studs everywhere
Custom preformer X intake with nitrous injection/water injection and backfire protection
Exhaust is currently undecided


Dang cameras! Pretty soon we will all be getting GPS tickets in the mail.
I understand completely about the horrible accident situation. I lived in the Philla area as a kid with two of the greatest cruise locations in the country; Front Street and Pottstown, PA. It was like nothing I could imagine and made sanctioned events look boring and underattended. Then one weekend in Pottstown, my dumbass friend decides to pull a car right on the cruise strip when another car pulled out right in front of them from a side street. Long story short, Joey killed his passenger (16 years old) and wrecked about 6 other cars in a very populated cruise area downtown.
Weeks later, every inch of the street was off limit to any cruising forever more. That scene was going on for 25 years and was a real treat to be involved for the last couple. I have never seen anything like it since.

DDTECH

Sold the AFI Manifold.

Upgraded to a Skunk2 Ultra Race 3.5L.

Thought i'd update.

Mojo4president

That Build looks like a solid foundation for some serious spray! What type of set are they planing to use ( single ,dual stage )? Im curious about the meth/and nitrous use. Wouldn't some good gas be just as effective as meth injection in keep detonation at bay ? nitrous does a great job at keeping the intake charge cool ( I have a vid of my data log ,the IAT drops from 99-50 degrees in under 6 seconds lol).Ive thought about using the meth but I would love to hear your input on it My next move to to use a sleeved block ( my engine now is stock plus a few bolt ons ) and I'm reaching my limit 100-150 shot ,my goal is to break 7.0 in the 1\8 on the engine I'm at 7.3 with a 100 shot ,so I have a small margin of error ,thats why i was looking into meth injection.
Im so sorry to hear about the tragic event ,when I hear stories like that I thank god I survived some of the incidents I was involved in when I was a youngster.

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Thank you for the condolences, though such us life. Tragedies change things.

The motor's nitrous system is a unique style called REVO. In previous posts here you can read in great detail about it. It very simplified is an instantly variable nitrous delivery orifice with multiple failsafes and computer control. There are NO jets in this system. Each custom made REVO (rotary, electronic, variable, orifice) valve controls the fuel flow and nitrous independently while maintaining set parameters within the systems logic. This REVO system is the only one in the US that I am aware of and was custom built by the owner of Wizards of Nitrous, Trevor Langfield in the UK.
The water injection is a failsafe device being employed by the systems computer when new tunes are being sought. Water is the VERY best liquid to spray into a motor for knock and temp issues. Chemicaly, there is no better liquid at reducing temps that can be consumed by a running motor. Water injection can INSTANTLY control cylinder temps. It is employed as a protection failsafe with instant control. In another application, the water injection will be used for cleaning out the combustion chamber. The steaming effect that is produced can clean many if not all deposits from valves and pistons.
Yes, the fuel will be used to tune the motor and will be very exspensive. The racing fuel I will start with will be about $20 a gallon with 119+ octane. Once the system has been dialed in to a comfortable tune with great repeatability, I can reduce the octane to lesser race fuels like the C116 blends.
I havn't looked at a chemical chart in a while but I believe that Methanal has less than half the effect that water has in a cylinder. Methanol as a fuel additive has very little effect on octane at the rates of injection used for detonation control (15-20% total volume) It is also a very dangerous fuel to carry on a vehicle for many reasons and should always be used blended. It is terrible on hoses, valves and aluminum as well. There is alot to know and you have to do the research. Don't just take my word for it.

HAVideos

AWD? no I was asking about a means of traction control using front wheel speed vs rear wheel speed able to adjust the duty cycle of the solenoids to help lower the slip ratio of those two wheel speeds.
Motor isn't bad. we had the fail safes turned off specifically to test a leaner afr. the lean protection would not have let it continue. chucked a plug and took a piece of exhaust valve out on the way out, no biggie. as I said, method validated. I have always kept my nitrous cars at quite a rich afr. gong leaner on the dyno has never yielded much power and definitely never come anywhere close to outweighing the strain it puts on everything. getting it fixed up and heading back out. can't go full 1/4 till I get a cage in the car now but I'll be testing 1/8 in the mean time.

A L I A S

wow, very cool thread i just spent all day reading and enjoying every minute of it. i learned some really cool stuff, and it looks like a lot of other ppl including you did too tyler! now that i've read so much i have a few questions. have you thought of moving on to more agressive fuels such as FTW blends or race e98? do you have any et goals? who is going to make your header? and last but not least, have you played with or benched the REVOs? thanks for the effort time money and r&d youve put into this!

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Thank you, I am always trying to learn more and from other peoples efforts and mistakes. Pile$ of part$ I wish not to have, so I am going at it very reserved and scientifically. I want to give the readers all that I am able, so that this voodoo nitrous stuff get's more and more understood.
I for a while thought that E98 or straight M1 was the ultimate fuel for nitrous. After a long while of research and actually asking many racing people about their satisfaction and shortcomings with M1 etc., I decided it was too high a risk on safety and maintnance. Whatever known chemical advantages that exist with these fuels are quickly outweighed by hazzards and cost. I concede that there are VERY legit and high HP motors that are making tons of power with these fuels. I have been told by professional motor builders about how much they dislike these fuels also.

If I had an ET goal, I would have to say I would be very satisfied if I ever got this DelSol into the deep nines. Nines at all are my personal goal and this same car went 9.89 last year with a stock block turbo B18C. In the right hands, this nitrous control system is capable of mimmiking a boost application per gear selected scenario. It can develop massive power waves at any rpm above the failsafe setting with precise accuracy (roughly 1-3 hp increments). It can build a wave like 40hp starting to 150hp in 1.5 secconds. Or it can ride a wave like in fourth gear it can come on at 300hp and maintain it until the pedal is released; given no failsafes are triggered.

Ahh yes, the header. I have no clue where to start. Seems like a few options are on the table but I havn't talked it over with Larry yet. He may have a strong candidate to try.

I have really wanted to bench test the REVOs with some liquid CO2 for effect and familiarization, but I have neglected to have the intake manifold fabbed out yet. I have all the parts except the custom water injection fittings from WON and will give it some serious thought for the fall and a great write up for the thread.

I really hope to give readers an unparalled invitation to read about very high output nitrous systems for Honda motors like no other effort before. Along with very factual and methodical insights, I will also (when able) give actual tune data from the ECU and Max Extreme settings for the nitrous activation with all data being logged available to. I really want people to see the efforts that many have made to bring nitrous control into the 21st century.

MikeySpec

Its not much but here's my small contribution for nitrous testing.

https://honda-tech.com/forced-induct...p-k24-3234223/

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Well as this thread keeps going, I will keep bringing the details. I really wish that it wasn't going so slowly with the build, but that is life. I look at this build every day and I am in awe at the possibility of success. I just want to be able to deliver the very best data and facts to the community. I do not want this build to be the run of the mill brag and lag on any facts associated with the performance.

After much debate and consideration on the water/meth set-up, I have decided to custom fabricate my own from scratch.
I am not a fan of pump systems and controllers at all. Though they are generally reliable and easy to install; I am fully "IN" on push systems. A push system relies on another form of energy like compressed air (which is what I am using), to deliver the liquid. I am not going to use any methanol in the mix. I have decided the benefits of pure water far out way the tiny octane improvement.
Water is impossible to beat for thermal benefits in a combustion engine. Nothing comes close. I have not decided to run the water injection system along with the nitrous. The nitrous system (REVO), is capable of regulating itself very precisely. As stated before, this is a JET LESS system and completely variable. It even knows when the bottle pressure is dropping and can compensate immediately. This water injection system will be for a fail-safe control on EGT temps and knock. Because water injection into a combustion chamber can instantly remove heat fast, it will be an excellent safeguard.


To begin detailing this system, I had to gather some credible data and specs from several injection company's websites. The injector is the most important part and determines how rapidly water can finely atomize and convert to steam for heat removal.
This is the key to a great working injection nozzle. Also, I have a very tight situation where the nozzles are to be mounted. I am going to have two nozzles with this set-up. They are going to be placed in the rear of the intake manifold directly facing where two intake runners merge. The 80 degree fan atomization spray pattern will evenly favor the runners this way. It's a straight shot in the hole. The problem with some injector nozzles is the bulky fittings connecting them to tubing. AEM actually has the longest (and worst, IMO) nozzle holder. The thing is huge! Yeah, it has a filter hosing but can not be placed in tight spots. I have decided to go with Devil's Own injectors and nozzle fittings. This company makes all their own stuff from the finest materials throughout. The nozzle holders alone are unique and convert readily to AN4 fittings very tightly for this install.
I could have gone with the push to connect plastic line stuff but wanted a rugged look and durability unsurpassed that AN lines and fittings deliver. These lines are very short (12") and will meet the solenoid with a Y fitting. The solenoid is a nitrous type capable of VERY high pressures but not overwhelmed at all by the 200 or less psi system pressures being used. Each nozzle has it's own filter screen for a final line of protection in the system. Another filter element is installed on the solenoid input to protect the seat and components from debris. There is also another filter inside the bottle. Also, careful filling with distilled water from sealed containers should prevent any system contamination.

The push is going to come from compressed air that is present on the car for other accessories. The bottle is a 2.5lb CO2 bottle ideally suited in size and construction for this system. The bottle has to be modified to accept a pressure port for the push, a fill port with cap and an exit fitting. I decided to run a 24an cap and fitting for the fill. A small 1/8 npt hole will allow the air to pressurize the bottle. The cap will also be modified to accept a float switch to warn of a low water condition. Here are some pictures of the components gathered so far. The tap for the 24an cap fitting is 1 7/8 12. I found a great deal on this for $30 buck new on eBay. Still in the construction stage but thought enough to post some progress.

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

So , I got some more parts in and just about finished the pressure vessel for the water injection. The quick jig I made to hold the bottle in the drill press was a success. I was able to drill the 1 3/4" hole without any trouble. I was hoping the bottle would be at least 1/4" thick so that the threads would be sufficient. The base turned out to be 5/16" thick, so things went well.
I was able make a quick tap holder for this giant tap. It was a 1 5/16 socket with a 1/2 carriage bolt through it to be gripped by the drill press. The drill press was able to keep the tap perfectly straight while a little pressure was applied and a 3/4 wrench was used to turn it in. After the hole was taped and De burred, I drilled a hole in the cap for mounting the float switch.
I used a 10-1.5mm tap for the cap so that the float switch would be able to make it's own seal from the inside. A copper washer and some red locktite will make it permanent. The left over threads that extend through the cap are being used to affix the cable gland that will connect to a larger and much more durable wire. This switch will be used to monitor the bottle contents and set an alarm or disable the nos if empty. The cable gland is a common item found on eBay with a PC9 size code. I used a thread repair kit to install a heli coil insert for the gland mount. It worked perfectly as you can see.
Some more hoses came in that will join the Y fitting to the injector adapters. These are bad ***, pre made lines from eBay and are excellent quality with abrasion jacketing too. They are rated to 3000psi and will never be hurt by the 200 or less psi this system will operate at.
I have chosen to use 2gph (gallon per hour) injector nozzles. 2 of them should be very adequate to cool off a hot shot without overdoing it. They will be easy enough to change if larger ones are needed. I will set it up for a bench test soon to verify flow at different pressures.

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

I decided not to terminate the gland with a cumbersome wire lead. It would just make opening and closing the tank a chore, even with a short lead I believe. I rummaged through my electrical stockpile and found some gold plated RCA connectors with the exact size thread I needed to install it into the gland cap. Now all that is left to do is solder it in and wala! Just pull the connector off and open without anything in the way.

I will post up some videos when I get the last couple fittings in and set up on the bench. I have noticed the view counts this week are like 1000 views! Thank you for reading and feel free to add your own content or questions.

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

So water injection, what's so good about that?
Let's talk a little tech, just a little because things get deep when the math enters. Not that the math is difficult, but the fundamentals of the system should be well known before calculations are considered.
Water has a property that all liquids have, that is technically called the latent heat of vaporization. Again, there are many good ways to relate this phenomena technically with great depth but let's keep it in simple terms for now. The latent heat of vaporization (from now on just LHOV), is the amount of energy (heat) required to fully convert a liquid to a gas (or steam here). Water has an incredibly high heat absorption rate when vaporized into steam. It is so good that most of the electricity generated in the US is steam generated and powers everything. This heat is what can be threatening to a combustion chamber as MANY nos users are aware. Heat is great when the pressure produced happens at the exact correct moment of crank rotation and converted into motion via the reciprocating assembly. This doesn't always go as planned and even if it does the cooling system can be overwhelmed or a drop in fuel pressure will immediately sky rocket the cylinder temps under a fully loaded pass. There are so many variables that a safe guard/s should be installed for protection.
Any liquid entering a combustion chamber has this effect of removing heat, even fuel. That is why rich conditions are safer than lean in a bad tune or run because more cylinder heat is passing out of the exhaust from the LHOV the fuel has. Water has an incredible ability (far above fuel), to remove heat from a combustion chamber. Water does not effect the combustion or disturb the burn if levels of injection are kept within known good values like <20% total volume. Usually even a bit less for a running safe guard <15% for turbo charged motors looking for knock control. Any more and it starts to put the fire down hard until ultimately it misfires. The process is so simple you might think it would be standard protection on every hard core effort but some tuners are so confident of their abilities they never consider it.

Water has a specific value of this property as measured in scientific terms and it is:
970 Btu/lb @ atmosphere (14.7 typical psi)
Translation 970 BTU is a British Thermal Unit of heat measurement
lb is the weight in pounds of water (8.34 pounds)
atmospheric pressure @ sea level is low by combustion process readings. !4.7 psi could barely rotate the motor with the plugs out. That is why a combustion process is adapted to increase the cylinder pressure to produce rotation (torque). In a typical combustion event the cylinder pressure may exceed 1500psi. That is a far cry from 14.7 and will get things going well. A race motor may experience peak cylinder pressures well above 2500psi! That is 172 BAR, or times the normal atmospheric pressure. Things change very rapidly in this environment and even the water has a challenge as the chemistry must be adjusted to reflect this environment.
Chemistry?
Under this pressure the water has a much diminished effect of LHOV. In fact it is reduced to just 360Btu/lb in the cylinder! That is 1/3 of it's value at sea level pressure. So why does the LHOV change under pressure? Simply, more energy is needed to separate the water that is so tightly compressed in the cylinder. Even so, water is simply the best at this. Even though steam is incredibly hot in and of itself, it has a much lower temperature than the fuel being combusted. This swirl of two temperatures in the combustion chamber tend to converge and equalize according to the chemistry injected ratio (that <20% value talked about earlier) and cool things down fast! Steam is freaking awesome as it cleans the chamber of deposits too.
The effect is immediate on cylinder temps, unlike the time required to conduct heat out of the chamber through the cooling system and oil under the piston and on valve train components above. In a real jam, water can save your *** here.

Heat will find the path of least resistance. If that is a piston crown with a very thin region near the exhaust valve like our four valve motors are; then this can happen in less than a few seconds. Way worse can happen in just a few more.