caster troy si

This is my account of the GSR block/LS crank/Type R head B-series Honda engine that I built over '06 Christmas.


So... I'm sure most of you heard me mumble about building an engine at one point or anther this past season. Some of you even heard Seth's rendition of the bumpy road I encountered during the build process at the SCCA end of the year party. Finally, I scored all the right parts! Then, they went off to the machine shop, as I anxiously waited for other important parts to arrive in the mail. Once obtained, it was off to Florida! You may ask, "Well, why Florida, Brad?" My Floridian friend Nate has something of a skill tuning high performance Honda engines. I packed my trusty CRX full of engine parts, transaxle parts, spare bolts, and ambition.(pictures missing from the lot...)


(Nate and his woman)

Nate's tunning service[Section 8 Automotive Tunning Service] has been booming. So much, in-fact, that he is expanding to a larger shop. The move happened soon after I arrived, which left his old shop empty except for the work benches, his project car, and a NASA surgical light(don't ask).









The Shop Lizard:





(full reach + tippy toes to get this picture)

The Work Bench:




Nate's friend Shannon loaned me a couple of much needed tools.



This is the first engine that Nate or I have assembled from the ground up. We started with the easy: Rods and pistons.


A side project: LSD
I aimed to install an LSD to help keep the additional wheel spin under control, but failed. The OEM Type R LSD I attempted to retro fit into this first gen GSR transaxle required replacement of the counter shaft and final drive gear, that I did not have. So, I threw the OEM diff back in and put it back together...



...several times.

The first time back together, I forgot to open the snap ring before tightening the case bolts.


This resulted in the destruction of the snap ring and the bearing that it resides in.


After a few calls we went by one of Nate's acquaintances' to pick up a new snap ring and bearing. Here, we got to check out the guy's current project:




fancy.

After assembling the transaxle it was time to call it a night. Once back to his place I found a feature on my new camera to play around with.






It was time to move Nates hatch out of the shop, so we tossed an organic powerplant in and loaded it on the tow truck.


Now it was just The Shop Lizard, the NASA surgical light, and my crap.




We had until the new year to be moved out completely... So, on came the late nights. And what's a late night without pizza and sometimes a brew? On a trip to the auto parts store I stopped by Bizzaro's to pick up some pizza. There was medium, large($17), and house($20). Easy. Then they give me this beast:






haha, expletive yea.

Ok, ok, back to the engine. BB&T in Olive Branch, MS did a fine job boring and honing the block.


After measuring clearances, we installed the main bearings and the crank shaft. Then, it was the piston rings and rod bearings.


After gapping the rings to approx. 45deg. apart and away from the sides of the cyl. wall that get the most friction, we installed the pistons.


I was going to pick up a piston ring compressor from an auto parts store, but Shannon offered his ceramic Moroso peice. The pistons literally fell into the cylinders. It was luxury.


All done!


With a goal of a streetable 11.5:1 compression ratio, I opted for CP 11.0:1 pistons. I planned to make up the extra five tenths with milling and decking. This way, I could use the flattest possible piston for better distribution of the explosion.


Next, I torqued down the rod bolts using the bolt-stretch method. I hear it is more accurate. Besides, the torque wrench I picked up was only $20. I assume it lost its calibration after torquing down the main caps.




Now on with the easy stuff:








This was another late night. We spent a nice chunk of the day dealing with stripped bolt holes in the block and head.

OUT WITH THE OLD!


Here's a look around the shop:








Installing the engine with out the head left us with limited mounting points for the hoist, resulting in an uncommon angle of installation. Well, the crank pulley got stuck with this method. We spent all that time running around for the stripped bolt holes and were begining to feel groggy and a bit annoyed. So, we took turns clearing room for the pulley... :twisted:


in with the new


I chose to install the shortblock/transaxle combo, first, for ease of installation. Now that its strapped in, its time to put on the head and manifolds.

A professional port really opens up the airflow on these Honda VTEC cylinder heads. And you gotta have air to make power! The RLZ stage 3 cams should compliment the RLZ port nicely on this type R head


This head, I hear, is the current highest whp of a naturally aspirated engine record holder on the RLZ dyno with an impressive 240whp. I don't plan to come close to that number, but its one of the couple of sudo historical peices that went into this build.

As an air pump, the engine can only flow as much air as its most restrictive point. I opened up the intake side with a BLOX manifold. The exhaust however is restricted until the funds replinish.


She's coming together quite nicely at this point:


The popular SRR cam gears came with the RLZ cylinder head combo of springs, retainers, cams, and port and polish... not to mention the working of the head altogether.


Bumpsticks!


So these cool lookin birds dropped in to say what's up:






The $20 torque wrench broke off the head of one of my transaxle casing bolts. That was the end of its life as a torque wrench and the begining of its new life as a wall decoration, BOTH in the shop and in the bathroom.




So... it all comes together! Engine assembled, transaxle assembled, old engine out, new engine in, fluids filled, bolts torqued, harness re-wired for OBD0-OBD1 conversion, battery re-connected, and a basemap programmed into the ECU. Time to turn the key... FDDDDRRRUUPOW FLIPPEDIDDIDIDDDIDDDDIDIDIDIDIDDIDIIDIDIDID ITS ALIVE! Containing my excitement was a task, but I didn't want to pop my cherry too soon. Good thing I didn't because the CEL burned yellow. It gave a code for an error with the distributor. The distributor was what needed to be rewired for the conversion so it had to have been a simple mistake. To make a long story short we spent the rest of the night rewiring the distributor. The car wouldn't start anymore and we exhausted our resources on diagrams and comparison to another distributor. The wire colors on the aftermarket distributor were all different than any diagram we had. Tragically, it seemed, we had to pack my things into the car and clean out the shop to turn the key back over to the landlord in the morning. So we did, and the car sat in the parking lot on its bumpstops all night. In the morning, nate hooked me up with another Honda enthusiast whom had his own shop. He even had a tow truck!


We sorted out the wiring problem first thing after being pulled into the bay. She started right up with no codes! Typically the next step is to idle, change the oil, drive for 25ish miles and change the oil again. But, the shifter wouldn't move into the reverse gear. I was concerned and after thinking about it and closely inspecting one of my 7.1 mega pixel snapshots of the transaxle before the case went back on, I thought that I forgot to tighten down the reverse gear bracket bolts. No reverse gear is cool with me if it has 1-5, but loose bolts are not acceptable. With the luxury of the lift and tools we eased out the transaxle to disassemble it again. To my surprise, I did tighten down those bolts. And when moving the shift lever between the gears it moved the forks and syncros across all 6 gears. I re-installed the gear selector assuming I did it incorrectly before, but once back in the car it still lacked reverse. Now that I was confident that all my bolts were tight, we pushed it back out of the bay and set off to put on those 25 miles. Starts moving forward... bam revs freely as if there is no trans. Axle popped out because of a missing snap ring. We replaced it and tried again... to find that the trans was only shifting between 3rd and 4th. This is still a mystery to me because when we had the case off it would shift between all the gears. What I could have done was re-install the old trans that I've been racing on this past season, with the failing 3rd and 4th gears. But, Nate could not properly tune the car without those gears. So, they made some calls and amazingly found the second best OEM trans that would fit in my car: A cable-type B16. Comming in second to a B16 LSD. Lucky for me it was affordable. The same guy own another gem in the Honda world:

Its a Del Sol that came from saudi-arabia. It has an automatic targa top remover. The motorized trunk lid moves up and arms extend to grab the targa.
Cool. I worked a deal with him for the trans and it took him a day longer than expected to come through with it. So I was just sitting around the shop offering a hand with other projects and cleaning up my messes It was nice though, the weather was premium and the company was stellar. The wait gave me time to indulge in my vacation since I was working on my own projects the rest of the time. "Feels good to do nothin." I even had a chance to play around with my new camera:







(Rob drives a turbo hatch thats about to recieve forged internals)



Not that my boss was happy that I took an extended vacation... but I made it up by surveying a property in Orlando

Ok, so the wait is over as the transmission arrives. But oh wait, no its not. It finally dawned on me that the splines on the input shaft between the GSR that I was going to put in(and bought the clutch for) are slightly different than the B16! Again, the phone calls went out. Found a less aggressive clutch than the unsprung 4 puck clutch disk I chose, for a good price. Oh well... the heavy duty pressure plate should provide plenty of grip.




After these minor delays and the break-in/tunning process, I packed the CRX back down to its bump-stops and headed for my friend Paul's in Tallahassee(4hr drive) to get a jump start in the morning on the drive home.(10ish). Paul even took me for a spin in the Pontiac! We didn't get far before a busted heater hose got the best of us.

She sure is a beaut!

Then it was off to Memphis.


Soon after I get back in town, I take the car to a local shop to have it professionally(i say it lightly) tuned.











The highest WHP the dynojet measured was 207whp and rev limit was never lifted past 9,200rpms.

The car is running great! I've got about 1000 miles on it on top of the 1500mi. I put on just on the trip home from FL. I've taken it to the first autocross of the season. Then, to be thorough, I check the valve lash again to be sure it is on point. I started top left and worked my way to the right, down the intake side. When I got to cyl. number 2 I found tons of gap between the cam and lifter... I'm like wtf? So I feel back there at the spring with my fingers and notice that the lifter on the left sits a little lower than the lifter on the right. I pull the cam out to find a broken valve spring:



Then, I take apart the engine and bring the head to my machinist to work up while I find replacement springs. I had a race the coming weekend that I wanted to be prepared for. I contacted Brad at RLZ Engineering and told him my story and showed him that picture. He was very helpful and told me that they have never had a broken valve spring before. He asked me to mail him the spring for inspection and overnighted me a brand new one for free! Impressive service! Especially considering he knew that I did not purchase the head combo through him, rather from a local enthusiast. Once recieved in the mail I install the new spring and reassemble the engine. I even stayed up all night before the race assembling it.



Well I was delerious and installed the headgasket backwards after it fell off the dowels so I didn't even get to race that day. I sent my thanks to Brad for the stellar customer service and asked to hear about any findings with the broken valve spring.

About a month goes by and here I am driving to work in bumper to bumper traffic at 30mph and the engine sounds like its running on 2 cylinders then clattering metal noises and it locked up... So I roll it into a parking lot, call a ride, and take a look underneath. I see no big puddles of anything, only a generous drip of antifreeze... oh gawd! I knew something went to ****...

That evening I took the header off and had to use my camera to get an angle in which the valve stems were visible:



I tow it and park it till the weekend when I could make time to inspect.


hmm...





What is this little nugget of joy here?:












hmm well lets drain the oil...err antifreeze... since the oil is on top of the antifreeze.










There were no visible defects of the bottom end.


oww
























I contacted Brad again and asked for an email address so that I could send him this write-up to keep him informed. He wrote back in the PM that I'm the only person to ever break his valve springs and asked what cams I was using. I wrote to him "Your RLZ stage 3s, its etched in the cam." Then, he called my cell from his cell while I was working, so I called back and got his voicemail and left a message. I've tried contacting again via PM and still have not heard from him. This was over 3 weeks ago.

I know that Brad does not owe me a new engine, but can I get a legitimate explination?

Anyone want 12 good Type R valves and a paperweight?

pomansouth01

is that the same cylinder you had problems on before?? if so, you could have bent a valve the first time...

pootie.teng

holy ****...sad story to a beautiful begining...even had birds and lizards shine down on you to only have it self distruct...boo hoo hoo...tears rolling down my face...nice numbers and build though before the kaboom...i wonder what RLZ is going to tell you...

Rocket

Brad has talked to me about this post because he wanted my input on springs and that he is very concerned about this extremely rare case. I know alot about these particular springs and have never heard of any breakages. There's not much more to be said than it is very rare to have these springs break, let alone twice in the same motor.

EFinawesomeman

dude. ouuuuch.

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

Damn that is a lot of work for that to happen. Hopefully, you get back running soon.

1.8L_allmotormilitia

This is a nice thread i really like it. Keep it updated i added it to my favorites.

caster troy si

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pomansouth01 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">is that the same cylinder you had problems on before?? if so, you could have bent a valve the first time...</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, the first one broke on cyl. 2, the one that dropped the valve was 1, although they were both on the intake side. When the head was at my machinist's shop he inspected the valve where the spring broke and checked for straightness and cleaned up the valve seat.

I was happy with Brad's great customer service, but I just lost everything invested in this engine due to a valve spring failing. I want to know something other than its never happened before and its a rare happening.

The conditions that the valve springs, as a whole, experienced were supposed to be within operational limits. No more than 9200 rpms, RLZ Stage 3 Camshafts, RLZ Ti Retainers... What could possibly cause a valve spring of this stature to fail under these conditions?

One thing that was suggested by Brad @ RLZ when the first one broke was that there may be rust pits due to the head not being covered in oil while it was being stored, but upon inspection under a magnifying glass I could see no such thing.

I don't want this to be a flame of anybody. I need legitimate closure.

FUEGS

wow that must suck and that was a good build and some good numbers you was pulling outta that enigne sucks to hear that

ImportechPerformance

Dang...I read the whole thing and enjoyed up until the very end.



That really sux dude!

Professor15

i was expecting some nice times and/or a nice dyno sheet at the end of this post only time find that sad carnage lol. but definatly a good thread, hope your problems get resolved and keep us updated!

IntegraType-R

Installed by a RLZ???? I firmly believe he should back his product..even if it is one case..great things about RLZ..and basically any great shop on honda-tech but this is the one reason why i build things myself..so i dont need to blame someone else.. if something goes wrong its my fault..period..

i'm sorry for your lost..a ton of pics and a very strong motor went to waste based upon a faulty set of springs it looks like..my suggestion to brad?? u should at least owe this guy a whole new head with the works..thats my seeing.....a valvespring is the backbone of the head..if that breaks..all **** is gone..

i mean..thats twice a spring broke correct?


Modified by IntegraType-R at 10:37 AM 6/7/2007

goforbroke

Big Teggie old head package?

Boostfed

Weird, I run oneof Brad's heads he did for me like 3 years ago with his springs and retainers , have made 676whp turbo motor. I just picked it back up and Brad freshened it up for me with new valves and all. We have revved my B16A up to 11K without failure , teh old oil pump broke though

I have known several people use Brad's stuff and had work done witn no issues at all

Was this head made specifically for you and for road racing?


Isn't this Rob Deal's old head that Brad did over 4 years ago for a Drag Racing set up? Rob let it sit outside on the porch for 6 months and then sold it to Casey. Is this the same head?


edit:Also if it is second hand, most manufacturers and companies don't warranty unless it is the original owner.


Modified by Boostfed.com at 12:33 PM 6/7/2007

b19coupe

Holy long row to hoe Batman!
Sorry to hear about your broken motor, been there, done that

Boostfed

What # is scribed on that cylinder head from RLZ?

91' LS-VTEC

suscribing to see what the out come is.

lambertincorp

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 91’ LS-VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">suscribing to see what the out come is. </TD></TR></TABLE>

caster troy si

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IntegraType-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Installed by a RLZ???? I firmly believe he should back his product..even if it is one case..great things about RLZ..and basically any great shop on honda-tech but this is the one reason why i build things myself..so i dont need to blame someone else.. if something goes wrong its my fault..period..

i'm sorry for your lost..a ton of pics and a very strong motor went to waste based upon a faulty set of springs it looks like..my suggestion to brad?? u should at least owe this guy a whole new head with the works..thats my seeing.....a valvespring is the backbone of the head..if that breaks..all **** is gone..

i mean..thats twice a spring broke correct?


Modified by IntegraType-R at 10:37 AM 6/7/2007</TD></TR></TABLE>

I did not buy the combo from RLZ. I bought it from a local Type R owner. USED! When he told me that he wanted to sell it, I checked out RLZ's rep and got excited about the deal.

As I said this is not a flame and I am happy with Brad @ RLZ's customer support.

I want to figure out how the hell this happened. I want to fill the void with something of substance.

Hey, Brad, do you want the head back to put it under the knife? I'll send it if only you'll help me out with the shipping charges. I don't need it anymore.

Did you find anything on the original broken spring?

Lets dig up the history on this head. Maybe we could find a good bit of serious wear and tear over the year[(s)?].

Brad should still have the head code.

edit: Brad @ RLZ's product support rather than customer support since I have not had the pleasure.


Modified by caster troy si at 3:38 AM 6/8/2007

caster troy si

I want to give a big thanks to those who were involved with the birth of this engine:
Thank you Nate, Rob, and Shannon in Florida. And thank you Kneenan in Memphis.

cjames235

i am the one castor troy bought the head from so ill jump in here to help the best i can.....keep in mind all i did was buy the head off of HT from a reputable member, get it to my house and let it sit in my room for about a month until castor bought it from me...... i never used it in any kind of way only took it out of the box to make sure it was complete.... and i have tons of people to vouch for this everyone i know saw it in my room and waited for it to go in my car

the user it was bought from on here told me the head had practically just been rebuilt (3000 mi) so we are talking about a brand new head basically, so i see no reason this should have happened......

the head was scribed #094 i asked brad about the head before i purchased it to get the specs and he gladly helped me out as he keeps all of the specs saved by the serial number

1 2 NV

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IntegraType-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Installed by a RLZ???? I firmly believe he should back his product..even if it is one case..great things about RLZ..and basically any great shop on honda-tech but this is the one reason why i build things myself..so i dont need to blame someone else.. if something goes wrong its my fault..period..

i'm sorry for your lost..a ton of pics and a very strong motor went to waste based upon a faulty set of springs it looks like..my suggestion to brad?? u should at least owe this guy a whole new head with the works..thats my seeing.....a valvespring is the backbone of the head..if that breaks..all **** is gone..

i mean..thats twice a spring broke correct?


Modified by IntegraType-R at 10:37 AM 6/7/2007</TD></TR></TABLE>

even though its a huge loss i fail to see how brad should owe this guy anything.
1. its a used head
2. last time i checked race heads come with no warranty even if you are the original owner.
3. when crowers cams were breaking left and right did they replace or help anyone fix their heads? for those that dont know they didnt do ****.
remind me again why brad should help this guy out?

thank you come again.

IntegraType-R

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1 2 NV &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

even though its a huge loss i fail to see how brad should owe this guy anything.
1. its a used head
2. last time i checked race heads come with no warranty even if you are the original owner.
3. when crowers cams were breaking left and right did they replace or help anyone fix their heads? for those that dont know they didnt do ****.
remind me again why brad should help this guy out?

thank you come again. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats..a fairly lame packed reply full of excuses..
so basically to sum it up..brad shouldn't back his products right??
Lemme get this **** straight..this is the "first" guy ever to have RLZ springs break on his motor..not once but twice?? I dont think the condition of the head has ANYTHING to do with why a spring coil binded and broke..
Secondly There's been plenty of replacements in this industrial..For one..i had crane stage2's break in my car just taking off from a light..after two weeks of study crane sent me what broke in the car.. valves of my choice, and a new set of stage 2's..which i sold because i went with s2s2's..
there's alot of parts that break..and really dont cause any damage..last time i checked skunk2 almost got sued with the whole TB screw coming out of their TB's and ruining quite a few motors..
I'm not Saying that brad really owes this guy a new motor..hell..it only reall needs a new head and a set of pistons and he's good.. Fact is If your goin to sell a product in this world you need to back it up and stand by it..even in its bad times..that'll just show what kind of person and product you sell..it makes people want to trust you..
if your ever selling something let me know..so i can stay clear of it.
I myself have helped build alot of motors and tune alot of motors..when somethings gone wrong..i've done everything i could to help that person, more then once..although i couldn't really GIVE money..but i did give what time and parts i could spare..
i'm basically trying to say..back your product or dont sell your product.

1 2 NV

race parts whether they are heads, cams whatever dont come with a warranty, however manufacturers replace stuff because they feel obligated not because they have to.
on that note i still fail to see why you think brad should replace that head. a $150 set of 16 springs failed, however a head even at low ball cost 400 plus headwork, plus new springs, plus retainers, plus seals. so brads supposed to take a **** on himself as a result? next do you want him to throw in some new pistons and rehone the block? next should he give the guy a reach around and tell him hes sorry? where does it end? a set of springs failed and brad should fork out 1000 of his own money to replace it............yeah right.
last time i saw brad was supposed to be trying to make money not lose it.

IntegraType-R

He wont be making any money if people start to question whether or not his products are safe to run in their car..

I do not believe brad should owe him a new motor..i said that.. Read what i said.. i do believe brad should look at the head and see what he can do..in all honestly if the guy that posted in this thread is telling the truth..that it just sat in his house..and was partially a brand new head..doesn't that cause for some question or concern..
brad's springs/retainers on brad's cams..there's no other valvetrain involved..this man did everything right..i'm not tryin to say brad should take a **** on himself..although i think he should at least give a new valvetrain..and possible find someone to rework that number 1 cyl for cheap..if not do it himself..thats the least i think he could do..thats a pretty big build..and no Aftermarket parts do not come with a warrenty.. your right.. but if you do whats right..which in this case isn't avoiding phone calls or emails your **** isnt' going to sell

btw i didn't mean to come off rude in the last comment, i'm at work and just woke up.