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Old 04-10-2010, 01:43 PM   #1
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Default Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

I have a JDM GSR that I had rebuilt but we failed to use non detergent oil for break in , here I am 10k later smoke seems to be getting a little worse oil consumption is bad & I pcv system is working properly. I feel that its prob too late to try nd 30wt oil with lucas break in additive , do you think engine restore may help the oil rings seat ?

I have a freshly rebuilt 96 jdm gsr engine & 96 ITR tranny, skunk2 tuner 2 cams with dual valve springs & retainers & stock cam gears,JDM ITR 98 spec 4-1 header with matching 2.5 ITR CAT & 2.5" exh piping to ITR Muffler, ITR intake tube / Apexi power intake, AEM FPR & RAIL, H22A4 injectors, ACT streetlight flywheel, Exedy clutch. Ok when rebuilding the engine every part was meticulosly cleaned, every seal, gasket, bearing was replaced ie main & rod bearings (acl) I had the head redone & valve job & new valve stem seals replaced (oem) I re-used the jdm gsr pistons the engine came with, do to the higher compresion jdm vs usdm, but I did hone the block & install new oem Honda rings. Engine made good power 208hp @ Churches Automotive testing
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Old 04-10-2010, 01:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

No, that will not work.


Pull the pistons and hone with a dingleberry hone. Replace the rings, rod bearings, and maybe pistons. Just check the skirts to be sure they are not scratched. Retune and you should be good to go.
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Old 04-10-2010, 02:18 PM   #3
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

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No, that will not work.


Pull the pistons and hone with a dingleberry hone. Replace the rings, rod bearings, and maybe pistons. Just check the skirts to be sure they are not scratched. Retune and you should be good to go.
All of what you said was already done with the exception of pistons the car doesnt feel lik its lost power either I really dn wanna tear it down again

Honed, new Oem rings, ACL main & rod bearings, pistons looked new only had between 35-40k JDM b18c gsr


check out my build Freshly dyno tunned GSR 195 whp 210 Flywheel (Churches automotive testing)
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Old 04-10-2010, 03:08 PM   #4
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

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All of what you said was already done with the exception of pistons the car doesnt feel lik its lost power either I really dn wanna tear it down again

Honed, new Oem rings, ACL main & rod bearings, pistons looked new only had between 35-40k JDM b18c gsr


check out my build Freshly dyno tunned GSR 195 whp 210 Flywheel (Churches automotive testing)

well if you dont wanna tear it down again drive it til it breaks either way your gonna have to tear it down
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Old 04-10-2010, 03:48 PM   #5
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

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All of what you said was already done with the exception of pistons the car doesnt feel lik its lost power either I really dn wanna tear it down again

Honed, new Oem rings, ACL main & rod bearings, pistons looked new only had between 35-40k JDM b18c gsr


check out my build Freshly dyno tunned GSR 195 whp 210 Flywheel (Churches automotive testing)
Ok, waste money on engine restore, lol.
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Old 04-10-2010, 03:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

You don't have to use non detergent oil for break-in. Thats a bunch of nonsense. The oem oil rings can easily get bent or damaged installing them into the block, Time to pull it apart and find where it went wrong.
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Old 04-10-2010, 05:44 PM   #7
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

How do you know it's not leaking past the valve guides? Do a leak down test and see if anything obvious shows up.
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Old 04-10-2010, 08:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

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How do you know it's not leaking past the valve guides? Do a leak down test and see if anything obvious shows up.
No I havnt done a compression test or leakdown smoke is blueish
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Old 04-10-2010, 08:59 PM   #9
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

The oil rings and expander probably moved during install and oil is by-passing them and causing smoke. I have seen this happen quite a few times...pull the head and check it out.
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Old 04-10-2010, 09:48 PM   #10
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

I think i might have the same problem that dosent sound very fun at all.
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Old 04-10-2010, 09:49 PM   #11
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

A leak down or compression test won't tell you anything about your oil consumption so it would be a waste of time if your engine is running good. Oil control rings don't seal compression and neither do valve guide seals. Most likely your oil control rings are faulty or were installed wrong. Does it smoke on acceleration or decel? Restore won't help your oil control rings.
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Old 04-10-2010, 09:50 PM   #12
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

i got a b18c turbo used to smoke a little every once in a while. compression check hit 190 each cylender. i didnt think anything was wrong know im pretty sure its burning thorough oil. im lost.
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Old 04-10-2010, 10:17 PM   #13
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

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Originally Posted by joshnqueen View Post
i got a b18c turbo used to smoke a little every once in a while. compression check hit 190 each cylender. i didnt think anything was wrong know im pretty sure its burning thorough oil. im lost.
See the previous post. Doing a compression test to check oil consumption is a myth that keeps spreading. The oil control rings on the piston control oil, not the compression rings. The compression rings only seal compression, they do not control oil. You could take the oil control rings off the piston and run a compression check and it would be higher than originally due to the oil entering the cylinder. Valve guide seals don't seal anything but oil anyway plus they are outside of the cylinder so they don't show up either.

If your PCV system is OK then there really is only two ways to get oil into the cylinder to be burned. Either the valve guides are not sealing due to excessive valve guide clearance or faulty seals or the oil control rings are faulty or stuck in their ring land due to carbon/varnish build up.

The valve guide seals themselves can get dried out and brittle and not seal but more commonly on a higher mileage engine that has been beat on the valve guide to valve stem clearance is excessive which wipes out the seal as the valve stem rocks around in the guide. Putting new seals on valve guides that are excessively worn is only a temporary repair and the new seals will be destroyed in short order.

Generally you can diagnose your oil consumption problem with a simple test. The problem with this test is if you have a catalytic converter it may mask the problem and you will have no smoke out the exhaust. If you have a cat it is better to do this test when the engine is dead cold so the cat hasn't had time to heat up. If you can install a test pipe in place of the cat that is even better. Get on a road where you can do full throttle blasts in 2nd or 3rd gear up to redline. Get the car moving and put it in 3rd gear and at about 2000 rpm put the accelerator all the way to the floor up until redline. If the engine smokes while you are accelerating you have faulty or stuck oil control rings. Then, after you have gotten to redline let your foot off the gas but leave it in gear so you are engine braking. If it smokes while decelerating then you are getting oil past your valve guides due to wear or faulty seals.

The reason accelerating causing the rings to pass oil is something called 'pumping' when there is excess oil on the cylinder walls because the oil control rings are not doing their job. As the engine is under load, the gas pressure (when you are decelerating there isn't much pressure in the cylinder) and motion of the piston physically pumps oil from below the rings to above the rings and into the cylinder. There are holes or slots on the piston behind the oil control ring land where oil can drain through and back to the crankcase. These holes or slots are not present on the compression ring lands. The thin oil control rings physically scrapes the oil off the cylinder wall and out these holes or slots.

Oil is consumed through the valve guides on deceleration because you have the throttle slammed shut and the engine rpm is high. This cause very low pressure (high vacuum) in the intake port at the outlet of the valve guide. the oil is 'sucked' through the valve guide due to the higher pressure in the crankcase. Oil doesn't go through the valve guides during acceleration because the pressure in the intake port and the crankcase are approximately equal at WOT.
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Old 04-11-2010, 04:22 AM   #14
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

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Originally Posted by Scott_Tucker View Post
A leak down or compression test won't tell you anything about your oil consumption so it would be a waste of time if your engine is running good. Oil control rings don't seal compression and neither do valve guide seals. Most likely your oil control rings are faulty or were installed wrong. Does it smoke on acceleration or decel? Restore won't help your oil control rings.
I agree with whay you're saying Scott, however I was leaning towards a potential headgasket leak/problem between the cylinder(s) and oil passage.
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Old 04-11-2010, 08:15 AM   #15
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

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Originally Posted by Scott_Tucker View Post
See the previous post. Doing a compression test to check oil consumption is a myth that keeps spreading. The oil control rings on the piston control oil, not the compression rings. The compression rings only seal compression, they do not control oil. You could take the oil control rings off the piston and run a compression check and it would be higher than originally due to the oil entering the cylinder. Valve guide seals don't seal anything but oil anyway plus they are outside of the cylinder so they don't show up either.

If your PCV system is OK then there really is only two ways to get oil into the cylinder to be burned. Either the valve guides are not sealing due to excessive valve guide clearance or faulty seals or the oil control rings are faulty or stuck in their ring land due to carbon/varnish build up.

The valve guide seals themselves can get dried out and brittle and not seal but more commonly on a higher mileage engine that has been beat on the valve guide to valve stem clearance is excessive which wipes out the seal as the valve stem rocks around in the guide. Putting new seals on valve guides that are excessively worn is only a temporary repair and the new seals will be destroyed in short order.

Generally you can diagnose your oil consumption problem with a simple test. The problem with this test is if you have a catalytic converter it may mask the problem and you will have no smoke out the exhaust. If you have a cat it is better to do this test when the engine is dead cold so the cat hasn't had time to heat up. If you can install a test pipe in place of the cat that is even better. Get on a road where you can do full throttle blasts in 2nd or 3rd gear up to redline. Get the car moving and put it in 3rd gear and at about 2000 rpm put the accelerator all the way to the floor up until redline. If the engine smokes while you are accelerating you have faulty or stuck oil control rings. Then, after you have gotten to redline let your foot off the gas but leave it in gear so you are engine braking. If it smokes while decelerating then you are getting oil past your valve guides due to wear or faulty seals.

The reason accelerating causing the rings to pass oil is something called 'pumping' when there is excess oil on the cylinder walls because the oil control rings are not doing their job. As the engine is under load, the gas pressure (when you are decelerating there isn't much pressure in the cylinder) and motion of the piston physically pumps oil from below the rings to above the rings and into the cylinder. There are holes or slots on the piston behind the oil control ring land where oil can drain through and back to the crankcase. These holes or slots are not present on the compression ring lands. The thin oil control rings physically scrapes the oil off the cylinder wall and out these holes or slots.

Oil is consumed through the valve guides on deceleration because you have the throttle slammed shut and the engine rpm is high. This cause very low pressure (high vacuum) in the intake port at the outlet of the valve guide. the oil is 'sucked' through the valve guide due to the higher pressure in the crankcase. Oil doesn't go through the valve guides during acceleration because the pressure in the intake port and the crankcase are approximately equal at WOT.
I have a JDM ITR 2.5 CAT I eliminted my 2nd o2 sensor because of the thread size in the JDM cat because It has some type of heat sensor, could my cat be no good, not working poperly, Shawn Church said my exh temp was really low, either way have oil consmption issues anyways. As far as when it smokes goes ... between shifts every time I accelerate from a shift some blueish smoke appears, but only the right whe you re-accelerate when the car is cuising at steady speed it doest smoke
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Old 04-11-2010, 09:11 AM   #16
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

based on the info scott provided and your info saying when it smokes id say its time for new rings
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Old 04-11-2010, 12:10 PM   #17
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

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based on the info scott provided and your info saying when it smokes id say its time for new rings
I highly doubt that the rings were installed incorrectly My friend that built the engine builds anything from chainsaw to sandrail engines, maybe my pistons appeared to look new but were worn at the north and south part of the pistons, ugh so over this car fyi car runs great has power & everything just smokes & used mad oil =/
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Old 04-11-2010, 04:59 PM   #18
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

Ok if I man up & tear my engine down again should I get jdm itr p73 pistons or are usdm itr p73 pistons fine Will I need to retune for these ? Mind you I live in Cali & only run 91 octain, will I gain hp with itr pistons over my jdm gsr pistons ? Should I go std or oversize ?
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Old 04-11-2010, 05:26 PM   #19
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

If your engine is running strong, just burning oil, just go for replacing the rings so you don't need to retune. You will want to have the cylinders properly measured with a dial bore gauge in case the cylinders are out of round, tapered, or oversized for the pistons you have.
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Old 04-13-2010, 02:58 PM   #20
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Default Re: Engine restore fix rings that wont seat ?

I went ahead changed my oil & added that 4 cyl engine restore see if it helps at all. So far still getting oily crap on my rear bumper, hopefully its just old built up crap blowing out =/
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