PSI GUY

iTrader: (2)

No, pretty much that. We make 259 whp and the car isn't cut up so likely 2300-ish with her in it and wen't 11.91.

93egSLEEPER

Weight plays a huge role, and going down the track at 2450 definitely isn't making me any quicker. If I get my promotion at work, the car is going to be gutted and stripped down (no cutting) and I'm hoping to get it to around 2200-2250 w/ me in it.

I also know my tune is off...way off. When I was driving the car to the track and did a 1-2 pull and the tires never broke loose. When I first had this thing off the dyno and tuned it would break the tires loose rolling on it in 2nd gear. I switched my older style JG cam gears out for a set of brand new GE ones and I have a feeling the degree marks might be slightly different and throwing off timing/cam timing. No doubt the car was down power only trapping 100mph when it dyno'd right at 220 on a dyno that is known to read low. My old GSR build in a heavier car on the same dyno made 181whp and posted the same trap speed. Even the tuner said "this car is strong and is going to be fast. Not may NA B series get much over 200whp on my dyno" There is a ton left in it, it's just been full of bugs and small issues. Hoping to get it all cleared up and post some better track times in the near future. I need it to cool off over here too. Being 90+ isn;t good for making power.

I use your setup as an example of where I want to be, and I don't think it's unrealistic.

93egSLEEPER

Just purchased a set of used 22" slicks

I'm awaiting my job promotion (still), but once I hear the word the car will be going in the garage for a couple weeks to go on a diet, get a couple small upgrades then come out ready for a retune....hopefully on C85. Hope my RDX's will be enough for the time being. Based off the calculations I ran they should hold up to 250whp no problem @ 60psi. Put me around 85% duty cycle which I am comfortable with.

PyroProblem

If you were running super rich due to the hot temps, you can adjust your IAT fuel comp tables and see if that helps. Just put a slightly lower value in and see how the engine responds. Assuming your tuner didn't intentionally richen it up to help with knock.

93egSLEEPER

I was playing with the car last night troubleshooting a fuel pump issue, which was nothing besides a loose connection, and decided to double check my timing since I swapped dizzys a month or so ago. Come to find out, when I set base time last I must not have gotten the ECU looped properly and I was running about 12-13* advanced when base timing was set @ 16* advanced in neptune. My car was running 3-4* retarded which would explain why it was rich and sluggish/fighting itself. I reset base time last night and the car is running WAY better. Pulls much cleaner and harder and the AFRs are not nearly as rich. I may go out to TNT tonight and see if there are improvements besides what my butt dyno thought it felt.

PyroProblem

Ahh yeah 3-4 degrees will have a huge impact on power.
Good luck if you go to TNT tonight. Should see quite an improvement with correct ignition timing.

93egSLEEPER

Between running retarded and the heat we had I would venture to say I was down about 15-20% power based off trap speeds. If I go tonight I'm hoping I will see improvements across the board.

COM2

Did you make it to the track last night?

93egSLEEPER

I went to the track Friday night for test and tune. Best pass of the night was a 13.21 @101.8 w/ a 1.93 60'. It was a faster pass, but still felt far from as strong as it should have been.

I have a loose connection or something somewhere. Twice when I left the line the car lost power completely. Not sure if its the main relay, the ecu or something somewhere else, but it just goes completely powerless for a split second, then re-gathers itself and starts going.

Twin Cam

Which slicks did you end up using?

93egSLEEPER

That was on the 23s still. My 22s haven't shown up yet. Should have them Thursday or Friday. Once I get them I'll be itching to head out and see if it gets off the line better. My dad wants to plan a track day to get the Chevelle out for its debut on the new motor as well so in a couple week I hope to have updated numbers again.
I'm trying to get on a dyno for a new tune in the next few weeks to play with the cams and see if I can get more power and shift it up in the powerband a little more. I think if I can get some more peak and carry it out 2-300 rpm higher it will make me quite a bit quicker in the big end. Might tune on e85 as well. With the power potential this motor has and has shown 101 trap speeds are not to par.

Twin Cam

Sounds good. Do you guys have much access to e-85 out of the pump over there?

93ericSi

Not a whole lot in the area it seems. Closest seems to be almost 45 minute drive. But there's a local dealer that has 110 at the pump on the drive up to the track (just fyi)

AllMtrRex

Launch RPM? Slick Psi? Shifting RPM? Logs?

You should be able to at least pull a 1.7x 60' with slicks. That's doable on stock suspension/open diff/slicks.....

98vtec

adjust your gear based fueling. running on a dyno and running on a track with slicks is a completely different load on the engine.

I may have missed it, but what RPM are you running it out to at each gear?

93egSLEEPER

The closest pump e-85 station is roughly 25 miles from my house. I plan on buying three 5 gallon race cans to run out and fill up as needed. It's an easy drive and only about 10 mins from my GF's house. Like I've mentioned, I should know about my job situation in the next week. Hopefully the car will be becoming less of a street driver and more of a track car. That will make going to get fuel much less frequent and not a big of a burden. I may even just run C85.

I live about 25 miles form the station out at the end of highway 18 so it's not too bad to get. I'd run 110 but @ $12-14 gallon and e-85 at around $3 gallon it's kind of a tough one to justify when I go buy 10 gallons for $30 of 5 gallons for 50+. I work with a vendor of VP fuel so I may try out C85....$51 per 5 gallon pail.

Launch RPM is 7800 right now. Gets out of the hole pretty well w/i bogging or dropping out of VTEC
Slicks were at 10psi Driver side and 8psi passenger side last time and got me a 1.93 60' launching from 7800. I have a set of 22's on the way...hopefully smaller slicks will up the traps and get me out of the hole better, 1.7 60's are my goal right now
I don't have any logs to share...TBH I'm not sure how to pull them from neptune.

I hope to have it re-tuned by gear in the next few weeks. My end all goal is to learn how to log and read logs so I can make my own adjustments at the track in the future. Just haven't had the time to have someone teach me.

I have the rev limiter set @ 8800 right now, shifting right around 86-8700 in every gear. I'm thinking about bumping that up next time out and running it out to 9k to see if it helps.

98vtec

pay attention to your spark plugs and what the actual timing is doing at each gear. maybe even do a shut down at the end of the run and pull the plugs. it will give you an idea of whats really going on.

With the IAT's getting up there, its going to start pulling timing as well but as your speed increases, IAT should drop. Moving the IAT to the intake pipe will also give you a much more accurate reading, if you have not done so already. Remember the tables are an averaging system (speed density). if you have a block of cells putting you at 30* of timing up top but during an upshift the cells find a severe drop in timing, its going to drop your final timing to the engine which could be producing the bog and not keeping you in the chunk of your power band.

I was looking for a recent dyno graph but maybe I missed it. By the looks of the build and your trans specs, a 23" slick should fit well and the gearing should keep your RPM up.

PSI GUY

iTrader: (2)

Even just with a good 60ft your car will be in the 12s. It's there, just need to get it figured out. Every time we go to the track the car doesn't get better or quicker, the driver does. You just need some good hook and bang some gears and it will be there. You should be able to go in the 1.7s pretty easy.

93egSLEEPER

I'll re-post the dyno sheet. Again this dyno is a "heartbreaker" and reads 10% or so lower than just about every dyno in the area.


I appreciate the input, especially about the IAT placement. I may try and put it in my intake pipe instead of having it on the intake manifold sooner vs later. I have a spare hole I can use. It's rare for me to see IAT's below about 110 right now. Cruising they stay 115-120, sitting in traffic they creep up to 125-130 pretty quick.

I am in no way a tuner and have ALOT I can learn about reading plugs and tuning. I know how to build a motor though haha. Tuning is something I want to learn and understand, just have never had the time to really play with it and learn, or have someone teach me. The only tuning teacher I have is my pops and that is with Carbs.

A guy I was talking to ran 22's on a similar setup to mine and was running faster 60's and traps over the 23's. I'm hoping to see the same results.

1.7 is my current goal. I am thinking about FF shifting next time out too as I'm sure that will pick me up a tenth or two.

All in all there is still a ton left in the car (I feel). If I can get the 60's into the 1.6-1.7's I'll be into the 12.7-12.8's. I also want to lighten the car which will pick up some MPH and a tenth or so more. Then tune it on some better gas and drive drive drive. I think I can get a 12.50 with enough seat time and the right combo.

98vtec

be aware that it will throw off your tuning because the sensor will no longer get heat soaked as easily and the IAT table will require adjustments.

I am not concerned with the output. the graph itself will tell you 1000x more information than the number it calculates. When you shift, what rpm do you drop to?


Tuning is honestly really simple. Great tuners are great because they simply understand why something needs to be adjusted. not just because the internet says so. Meaning, they know and understand the different ways an injector pulsewidth can be manipulated. A lot of times, the answers to a problem can be found by logging the correct input/output and logging multiple lines and putting them together. whether it be a voltage drop, a map sensor out of scaling, heat soak...etc. The base knowledge, however, is incredibly easy to understand once you take the time to realize its not a bunch of wizardry (as long as you are using a engine management that does not require lying to make it do what you want).


you are using Neptune right? go into the software and open the help files. there are videos and explanations on how everything works. read the forums (www.hrtuning.com). www.xenocron.com has a tech link that has a wealth of information which will help you understand how PGMFI works.

the Evans-Tuning forums also have a great wealth of information. This is all concrete information. Not just random internet people with no experience running their mouths.


Good luck.

93egSLEEPER

Again, thank you for the help. When I get the car tuned I will switch the IAT location. This time around I'm having a buddy tune my car who likes neptune and has decent experience with it. He's tuning it for free so all we have to do it pay for dyno time. He used to work for endyn so he has an great background to learn from. I am going to watch him and be his shadow as we tune to try and learn as much as possible. He has taken my car on as his own personal vendetta to get it deep in the 12's

As far as shifting goes, I have not paid close attention to where the RPM drops on shifting, I know on my street tires it does not get below roughly 6500. On slicks it drops slightly lower as they are bigger than my street tires. I Plan on trying to rev it out more next time and keep my RPM @ 7k and up so it shifts right into the meat of the power band and torque. This is also why I plan on tuning it and playing w/ the cams. If possible I would like to carry the power out higher and keep my RPM up after each shift. I'd rather cut 400rpm off the front side and add it to the back side...it will make me faster no doubt. If I can get my best power band is from 6500-9200 I would be perfectly happy...When going down the track it will never drop out of that range. I really don't care about how well it gets to the next stop light on the street. It's going to require playing w/ the cams on the dyno though.

Yes I am on Neptune. I have poked around HRTuning and Xenocron a little bit....seriously I just haven't had the time to devote to it and really concentrate. I'm hoping to take a week off from work in the next month...maybe it would be a good time to spend playing with all this. I understand tuning and what all goes into it, I just don't know what/where it all goes in the program. I'm not familiar enough w/ it yet. I know I'm capable, just need to really focus on it. I feel I'm a smart guy and I've been told tuning is simple once you take the time to learn a program and learn the basics. That's next on my to-do list....along with the 540 Big Block Chev I'm getting ready to start building LOL

98vtec

I'm not on the internet much anymore but if you have any questions, I would be happy to help. Always willing to help people who try to help themselves first.

Blake.at.PRfab@gmail.com

93egSLEEPER

All the tips and guidance are very much appreciated Blake. I have a solid group of people who have been willing to help me along on this build and that has been a major factor in how successful it has been thus far. I know it's very early but with time it will continue to get better and better. Once I start to play w/ neptune more myself I'll probably give you and derek a shout for some tips. I can do just about everything aside from scaling and adjusting the values (actually tuning the map) but the rest I understand I can make adjustments on my own already. I'll get that IAT moved and get it -re-tuned and repost w/ some more data. If I get to the track on 22's before that I'll post up with updates on that as well. Thanks again

On another topic: fuel

I want to give pump E-85 a shot, but I have some reservations as I hear the quality out of the pump varies drastically and you never get the same mix twice. Does anyone have first hand experience that can chime on how big of a deal E85 vs say E70 on the next batch will hurt a tune? Obviously it will run richer w/ less ethanol content, but is it enough to worry about?

Thanks,

93egSLEEPER

After doing some chatting w/ slowsleeper and sharing my tune w/ him I think He may have found some missing potential with my setup. After reviewing the dyno and fuel graphs the cams could really use some love by dialing them in properly and adjusting some setting accordingly. The tune is fine for where it's at now, but my motor isn't in its most efficient setting. Pics provided below. Personally I feel this motor is running at about 80% of its potential, the 20% just needs to be found. I don't think its the cams or the profile, its just a matter of getting things set properly.
Low cam fuel

High cam fuel

blackeg

you are in good hands from all that i can see man it will get worked out. neptune isnt bad to use at all you will pick it up very quickly.