uncleben

Very good point...

...and also good advice

I'm leaning towards what a lot of you are saying - don't put money into body/paint now, not when the future is so uncertain.

Since we can actually still buy the front lip from Honda, I've thought about buying another one, but mine is is 8/10 shape (could easily be made 100% with some light work/paint) and I don't drive it much. Still, an interesting idea.

Awesome tips and advice, you've clearly put some thought into this on your own projects. Some of these items would not be very practical if I'm going to drive it occasionally (and I should), but I like how you're thinking long term.

Uh, yikes? Haha

Interesting the amount of varied opinion on gas or no gas... I guess it is going to largely depend on how often the car is driven between period of the gas sitting.

What kind of parts have you run into that are discontinued?

uncleben

Lots of great comments and advice guys. Glad to have a good discussion going on here.

I wouldn't be discussing any of this as it pertains to value if I thought I could only make $10-15K in 20 years. Just look at what muscle cars are worth these days. That is the kind of value I'm dreaming about. Maybe I've way off base...

I hear what you guys are saying, but just to be clear, I've owned this car since it was basically new (2002, was in MINT showroom quality from the first owner), and I've since put 90K miles on it. I've also tracked it probably 20 times on multiple tracks, not to mention autocross and drag racing a few times. I've gotten years of enjoyment driving/tracking the R. So I wouldn't say it's going to waste, it's given me tons of enjoyment, and I don't want to part with it. So, I'm trying to decide what to do with it since it's not my primary vehicle, and I don't have room for it in my home garage. I've also become a bit concerned about the mileage approaching 100K, and how that mileage might effect it's value down the road, which has me looking at options for storage and starting a dialog on the future value/rarity of the R.

Now, that being said...

^ this...

^^ this...

^^^ and this....

Lead me to something I've been thinking about for a while too. Is MY specific Type-R really going to be worth much, even 20 years from now? I wonder just how many R's will be left. Sure, there are already a "limited" amount from the get-go because production was so small compared to other makes/models. And a lot have been stolen/wrecked/parted. But, as someone else pointed out, a lot of people who have an R, or want one, realize the potential for value down the road, and aren't just going to let it go to hell or sell them off. And of the R's that are left in 20 years, how many will have under 100K miles? Maybe a LOT of them. So what is a 97K mile R really worth at that point?

And just to muddy the waters even more -- my ITR is not virgin. She was unfortunately involved in an accident about 8 years ago. I was side-swiped with resulting damage to the passenger door and quarter panel. I had one of the best shops in town fix it, but it's a scar that can't be undone for the potential buyer who is looking to buy a MINT car.

So- what was originally going to be my #4 question in the first post, I will pose here:

If I am really going for long-term value, for collectable/classic/savings sake... is hoping that my specific ITR will really be worth something in 20 years kind of delusional? I wish I knew more about classic/rare cars in general, and specifically classic car value. Maybe what I should be doing is offloading my R for $10-12K (or whatever the going rate is these days) and finding a 97-98 with lower miles that has had no damage? There is also the emotional connection and history that goes with owning a single car for 13 years. Something for me to think about for sure...

Todd00

ITR value is going to depend upon how the market goes. Right now the market has a very low amount of mint low mileage examples available. And as with anything, people with money/desire are going to want those first and pay handsomely for them.

There are still several ITR's around with higher mileage that are non-salvage titles and those keep their value quite well too. They aren't $40K cars, but fortunately the expensive ITRs prop up the cheaper ones and their value has seemingly bottomed out and quite possibly is beginning to climb.

Still, hard to say what the ITR will do in the future. But with the NSX's and M3's starting to command big bucks now and Porsche's absolutely exploding, the next big thing might be cars like the S2K, ITR, etc. Honestly I think we're already seeing it; I just don't know the ceiling. Generations beginning with X don't have the "domestic" mindset like those in the past, so they're willing to pay bigger bucks for a Japanese car, like a Honda.

The great thing about that era of car is that chassis dynamics were very good without being subject to strict crash laws. Low airbag count, no driver intrusions (traction control), DBW and hydraulic steering were all strong points and make for a very rewarding drive--You just aren't going to find that with anything modern, especially in a FF car.

slooogsr

THIS^

I was talking about this with my old man the day after I got my R. It's strange to think about it but isn't the R one of the last real "analog" drivers cars? Maybe the Miata as well? Just hard to believe since it doesn't seem that long ago that the Integra was considered a "high tech" tuner car....

joey1320

I'll go back to my previous statement regarding the supply and demand aspect of these types of cars.

You have yo think of who the market target was when the cars came out, so the 17-25 year group IMO cause older guys were probably into BMW's or higher priced cars.

Now its been 15 years or so since the cars hit the market and now those guys are getting to their 30' and early 40's. So life probably has taken its toll with a few kids, a home mortgage, some college loans and so forth.

Now give it another 15 years, those guys will be in the early 50's and such and now life has given them a bit of a monetary break and these guys will be looking to get into some type of "fun car".

What do you think they'll be looking for?

I was 17-21 when the R's were on sale. I couldn't own one for the life of me cause they were too expensive. But once I get done with my SI resto, what do you think I'm going to be looking for? I'm not going to just stop loving the cars I did when I was 17 and go buy me a new one... New cars don't have the soul older cars had. This is what we must remember.

That's if for me. Enjoy your R's

jdmspoonitr

iTrader: (1)

The whole idea of not driving these cars makes me sad. Although I will admit I probably have one of the lower mileage ITR's it is just so much fun on track. I would rather invest in something that really appreciates like real estate instead.

Just drive it and enjoy it. A 100k mile ITR that has been tracked will not fetch enough money to make it worth storing long term. What are we talking about in potential value at best... 20k in the future?

You can always make another 20k. The enjoyment of driving this car exceeds any 5 digit monetary value for me.

These cars have to be driven...

TypeRod

I wish I left my R stock. I can put back the stock springs on it, I still have those. But my dumb @ss got rid of my stock exhaust manifold and the stock exhaust. Im such an idiot! lol!

GoLowDrew

I think a "perfectly restored" ITR will be in the $30K range. $20K is still an "used" car.


Before anyone say it's crazy, it's not. Most of us in the gen, are heading into middle age. These are the cars we will collect, desire, and pay for.


I mean, if you are looking at a 3 or 4th car in the household, you can buy a 2015 Honda Accord for $30K. Or spend that $30K on that ITR you always wanted....


A profile of this guy will be age 50, male, professional, house just about paid for, kids off to college. He DD his 2013 BMW 528, and wife drives a new 2014 Ford Explorer. There's also his old 2003 Lexus ES330 that his kids drive. His first car was a 1983 Civic S hatchback.


Time for his ITR...

Todd00

You're completely missing the point. EPS and DBW "disconnects" you from the car; It's no longer a mechanical/analog driving experience at that point (and that's what folks want and what lures them to older cars). Airbags add heft, sound insulation adds weight, traction control is another layer between you and the car, etc. Not to mention that the ITR is the pinnacle of the double-wishbone cars plus has a much more solid chassis than any of the others.

I could care less if something like a new Si has a chassis that's 1000x as stiff. It's still overweight, has a nerfed motor and is running front struts and an inferior rear multilink.




Same exact things could be said about a '69 Camaro Z28 or '70 Hemi Cuda. But your "fears" haven't stopped their prices from skyrocketing or from folks driving them. The ITR is no longer a daily driver so stop thinking of it as so. It is now a weekend toy only. Thus, many of those fears you list become a moot point.

Seedc2

iTrader: (1)

Everything is speculation, but good points nonetheless. I love how this thread is bringing out the early adopters of h-t

Todd00

How is that any different from an E30 M3, '69 Camaro or '70's Porsche? I could go on and on, but what you stated is what happens once a car gets older and reaches a certain collectable value.



You *kill* any value of said cars once you start removing crap and/or swapping motors. We're comparing an ITR to other collector's cars, not some hatchcrap with a swapped motor. You can also build a E30 non-M into a much faster car than a true E30 M3...but in the end the M3 is still the more valuable car and will remain so. Don't take things out of context to fit your "argument". There is a reason why an original Boss 302 Mustang commands vastly more money than some normal V6 with a V8 swap and "resto-modded" suspension (even though the resto-mod is a superior "driver").



This is strictly your opinion. And this is something that people accept, yet they are still willing to shell out for said cars that fit into this category. The simple fact that nice original ITR's are quickly heading up in value is proof that a lot of people disagree with you on this topic.

Again, you don't seem to grasp how the collector's car market works and/or you don't want to believe that the ITR is now a collector's car. Either way, you are entitled to your opinion...but you seem to think that everyone should feel the same way when clearly they do not.

PaulMc

iTrader: (1)

I don't understand the argument in regards to it not being a practical daily driver because of theft and worrying about total loss accidents. I've daily driven my R for the six years I've owned it, was involved in two minor accidents, parked it at a mall five days a week for four years and never had any major issues, plus I live in NJ. Owning it and driving it is just a risk you have to be willing to take when you own an R. For most of my time owning it, I couldn't afford to pay beyond liability insurance for it either. It's only unenjoyable, and wasteful when all you do is worry about your Acura being stolen or hit. People ruin the fun of the car by mind ******* themselves.

Todd00

I don't understand the argument of a "bad" daily driver or "inferior/slower" to today's cars. While I don't disagree with either...that's NOT what the discussion is about.

A 1961 Ferrari 250 GT California sold for $10mill, but it's not as fast as V6 Camry. Does that mean the Camry is better?

This is like people refusing to believe that something they used "back in the day" has any value now and anyone willing to pay top-dollar is stupid.

Get off my lawn!!!

white rocket

The Integra Type R collector status is among us, no matter what anyone thinks. Those that lusted after the car in high school are now established and have the financial means to obtain their childhood dream car. The cars performance itself is really not a factor at all. It's the nostalgia that people are buying. Take an E30 M3 for example. Values are through the roof now but compared to modern day tech the car is a dinosaur with Datsun 510 suspension. For it's time it was revolutionary, as was the ITR. The fact that you can get more bang for buck nowadays isn't part of this equation.

I love the ITR and always will. I know the car intimately. It was a dream car for me as a teen and obtaining one in 2003 was that dream realized. Attending a couple Expo's (Yummies hosted me in '09. Thank boss ) had me reassured that I'm not the only crazy ****** that is die-hard for this machine. Still owing that same car has made me want another one. The fire has not even come close to wavering and I'm pushing 40. Would love an NA1/NA2 or 997 Turbo 6 speed and those are definitely on the list but the ITR is still the "it" car for me.

The sentimental value and nostalgia is what gets most people, including myself.

joey1320

Yes!!!

This is exactly what I trying to say. These cars were the pinnacle of the "import scene" of the late 90's when the little "4 bangers" were finally being taken seriously as real driving sports cars. Honda, at the time was pushing the envelope with the whole 100hp per liter and it made me(us?) feel special because with small bolt-ons, these cars could keep up with others on the tracks.

These cars are great drivers' cars and no modern car can duplicate that for me. I drive brand new bimmers at work all day and if I had my rathers, I'll rather own an R than anything on the current BMW line up. I'm dead freaking serious too...

b18c5 power

iTrader: (3)

DRIVE it and enjoy it ;what's the point of owning a Garage queen if u don't drive it.. I never understood that ;
I drove my Type R for 10 years as a DD!

Lucky-R

great insight on both arguments of preservation and driving the crap out of this car. in my humble wisdom of being an original owner and seeing what this car and anything having to do with it has been over the years, you are KIDDING yourself if you think its not gonna RISE in value. imho its gonna skyrocket. it will come to the point where even mileage wont really matter anymore. original vins, original engines and condition of oem parts will dictate the value. an original clear title TYPE R chassis will be gold one day. when i was looking for a 60s mustang, a GT body with a A or K code engine was worth traveling across the country. and our beloved TYPE R is like the shelby of integras/civics! dont worry, your kids will have the pleasure of discovering this truth in due time.

if its possible to be proud and depressed at the same moment about owning this car, thats my life story. and im not gonna lie...selling HAS crossed my mind again and again in recent weeks just because. then i say to myself no way, how can i? kinda fcuked up. it is what it is.

Steady R

Just out of curiosity what did you move onto ? Seems like you got a real bitter taste in your mouth from the R.

white rocket

If you can hang on then do so. Us old timers know your caR well and it would be a shame to see it go. However, if that time comes know that I have a enclosed heated storage facility for preservation and would pay top dollar. Jus' sayin'. Honestly though, keep that **** so we can all chat about it in 10 years

dc24me

I picked up my diamond in the rough CW 00 last fall for about the same money you are talking about selling yours for. It has all vins going for it, the original from end and relatively low kms (less than 50K miles). But it had been sitting since 2008, had bolts ons that needed to be replaced and maintenance for a 15 year old car, regardless of the low mileage. Fortunately, I got it from the second owner who was an acura tech who took care of the car. But I still did a lot of work to the car, mechanically anything that was worn was replaced with oem. I am considering doing all new oem bushing next. A bonus was that it had seen zero or few winters when the first owner had it, when I removed the rear seat bolt, the bolt was all black and had no rust at all on the threads. The underside of the car was very clean. The bad was that even though it was a clean title with only a $400 claim on the back bumper when the car was only 2 weeks old, it has a dents on the edge of the hood near the cowl which I would have to get corrected. There is also some filler near the drivers bumper tab, the car was repainted on some parts and the repair wasn't exactly a good job as there are flaws in the repair such as mapping, excessive dust and sanding marks.

Are there any flaws in your repair work on your door and quarter panel? If your paint has been taken care of, I would address those flaws first. On my quarter and hood as well as bumper, I plan to get those walnut blasted prior to any bodywork, as well as have the sheet metal in the quarter panel fixed using a hammer a dolly so it looks flawless. The quarter window glass will be pulled so there is no overspray on the rubber. My doors are a little wavy from dings, but it could also be from the sealer in the door between the reinforcement bars and the doorskin.

I think your car is worth keeping, especially after having it for so long. These cars in general have changed so many hands and it is impossible to find a real virgin ITR as the cars are modded and turned back to stock, unless it is a one owner car with full disclosure and markings on from the factory. But the really neat thing about ITRs is unique badge number, you can find lots of info and history of the each car online. If you do any repairs to the body, documenting it with photos may make the the accident not a big deal. If your paint is nice, you may want to consider getting it detailed first and then figure out what panels you want to repaint. To repaint a full car is a lot of money. It does help though is you do the removal and reinstallation yourself. If you are restoring your car cosmetically, I would take care of the mouldings, plastics, bumper brackets causing sags and anything else on the car first including the engine bay and undercarriage way before paint. And when it does come to paint, make sure the panels are taken off the car whenever possible and keep the existing paint near the vin tags if you have them all. New looking brakes and rotors, fender liners, emblems, mouldings and refinished wheels go a long way.

uncleben

Maybe the key to this whole discussion, like you say, is that we just don't know where the market is going to go or what the ceiling on the market for Type-R's is going to be. Maybe it is just a bit too early to be trying to predict these things. But, I have a hunch

As I said above, I'm not looking for $20K in profit, I'm hopeful for a whole lot more. But maybe that is a dream on an R, let alone with my miles and history, I just don't know. I need to find some classic car experts and pick some brains...

I'd never thought about it that way. Some very interesting thoughts. This is the longest I've ever owned a single car, so moving from a drive-it-every-week to more of a collector mode of ownership is all new territory for me. I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with that transition either.

Exactly.

I wouldn't say there are flaws as a result of the repair work necessarily, other than a very small section of re-spray that didn't get the clear coat applied quite right. The hood and bumper have the general flaws/wear you'd expect on a car that is 15 years old. But the more I think about it, I don't think paint/body work is in my near future. I think it's probably best to see what happens 5, 10, 20 years from now and go from there. And as I said, I really do need to find some true classic car guys that know the hobby and can give advice.

Yep. Having it for 13 years makes it even harder to consider selling just for the purpose of finding an extra-virgin one. Particularly when the only purpose of that is for an eventual value that we aren't even sure about yet.

egb18cr

Over here in Toronto there are only 3 for sale. A mint, 60km all original one for $20,000. A 100km pretty clean one for $14,000. And a butchered high km turbo ricebox for $7,500. So I believe in the future they will be worth good money. A couple of my buddies had them. A 1997 CW and a 2000 PY. The PY got stolen in the driveway 10 years ago and my other buddy still has his and will never sell it. People here are buying up all the old school datsuns, and rx7's as collector cars also.

tony_2018

If your serious about keeping the R for your entire life than its about time you make room for it at your own house, give the car its own garage and not some storage unit where you won't see for a couple months to a yr at a time. Whats the point in storing a beast of its time caged up?

Geis

I agree with this, however it's easier said then done.