Project X

Any B18A/B owner who has only cams/valve springs/titanium retainers and raised redline to be careful revving past 7500 rpm.

Here is why...

(POS Photopoint...just cut and paste link)

Burnt crank:
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?...nce=0&res=high

Spun rod bearings:
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?...nce=0&res=high
<A HREF="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=204193&a=7031968&p=51831041&Sequence=0&res= high" TARGET="_blank">http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=204193&a=7031968&p=51831041&Sequence=0&res= high</A>

Metal shavings in oil pan:
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?...nce=0&res=high

If you constantly rev past 7500 rpm like I do, BUILD UP YOUR BOTTOM-END!!!

For me, I was expecting it to happen soon, but not this soon. I was road racing and was revving 3rd between 7000 - 8000 rpm on the turns and maxxing out 4th on the straight. The car only lasted 3 warm-up laps and 5 competitive laps. The result scene was very close to the one in Initial D: 2nd Stage.

These also be the possible culpits:
1) Mobil 1 10w30 - not thick enough?
2) low on oil (only had 3-3.5L)
3) ITR tranny w/ 4.785 FD - puts gears in high range rpm
4) oil temp - might be too high?




[Modified by Project X, 11:39 AM 7/18/2001]

HX_Guy

Damn...shitty man! What sort of damage was done? How did you discover the problem? I had a similar problem before..but unfortunately my rod broke in two and made a nice hole in the block.

I rev my stock B20 bottom end to 7000 alot while racing..and that worries me as well. If you could ..give some details of how you discovered the problem..Id hate to break a B20 block. Which rod went bad? Im willing to guess 2 or 3?

I dont think the oil type was a problem.
Low oil could ahve contributed to it.
The high gearing DEFINATELY had an effect...which is why Im NOT getting a B16 tranny...GSR tranny is as far as I'll go. Sure the B16 gearing is great for racing..but it sucks when the engines takes a ****..then no racing at all.
The oil temp probably wasnt at fault..as you were using synthetic.




[Modified by HX_Guy, 11:17 AM 7/18/2001]

HX_Guy

If you are rebuilding...I would really suggest buying a girdle from Z10.
I plan on doing a rebuild of my bottom end sometime...hopefully it wont be too late..and am planning on Eagle (or Endyn) rods, ARP rod bolts and the Z10 girdle..plus some higher compression pistons since everything is out anyway.

Heres some pics of the Z10 girdle I was talking about:

Project X

Yup...ordered that already...

The rebuilt will be full out all the way.

HX_Guy

Details! Details! Details!
Which rod? What signs?

(I added to my earlier message too )

93B18

I've seen many successful built LSVTEC setups w/o the girdle that rev up to 8500+ rpms w/o any problems. Is that Z10 girdle really worth the extra $300 for an LSVTEC buildup?? TIA for the info

HX_Guy

I believe its worth it. Honda themselves use a girdle on the GSR and Type R...and that has a better rod/stroke ratio too.

When comparing B18B bearings to B18C..you will most likely always see that the middle B18B bearing look way worse then they do on the B18C..and one of the biggest reasons for this is the girdle. Too much vibration without it.

If youre spending all the money on a LS/VTEC..why skimp out on the extra $300..if youre gonna do it..do it right.


[Modified by HX_Guy, 11:44 AM 7/18/2001]

Project X

A picture worths a thousand words.

Rod #2 is the most severe one. The bottom-half of the rod bearing #2 got thinner and was stretched to 7/5 of its original length (longer). The top-half was shredded to bits and was all in the oil pan and clogging the oil pickup. The blade #2 of the crank and the rod cap #2 were burnt. The other rod bearings and crank surface had what it appeared to be mosquito bites scuffs.

The first noticeable sign was a metal-to-metal banging sound, then power loss then car stalls. No smoke appeared at that moment, which was good.

Project X

How many of these LSVTEC guys road race? I assume they just drag race. Hitting to around 8000 rpm for a short duration once in a while is okay, but still puts alot of wear on the BEARINGS. Road racing at that RPM meants wearing them out even faster, in my case, an hour of hwy high-speed driving, 3 warm-up laps and 5 competitive laps. The LSVTEC is w/o problems now. It's matter of time...

Just be forewarned and be prepared...

HX_Guy

Thanx for the information man. Did you by chance have an oil pressure gauge? I have heard that it can help tell you if the bearing as going bad.

Its a good think you didnt lose the block...just look at it as a chance to upgrade.
Good luck with the rebuild...what are you plans?

Project X

I did have the oil pressure gauge, but it didn't show any indication that I was low on oil. Perhaps, it was more about the oil temperature. Maybe the oil overheated and it was losing viscosity. I definitely will be getting a oil temp gauge.

Yes, this is a chance for me to fully upgrade it.

HX_Guy

Did you notice any chang in the pressure itself? From what Ive read, when bearings start to go bad..you start to los oil pressure..so if normally you hav 70 psi @ 3000 RPMs...then one day you notice its lower then that...it might be the bearings.

What rods and pistons are you going with?

Project X

All this happens in 10 mins. I think I might either get a better oil pres. gauge with a build-in warning light or a autometer warning lite for it. Oil pres. seems fine all the way.

I'll email you for the details.

HX_Guy

Thats a good idea about the warning light. I might do that as well..since when racing (drag or road) I dont think anyone has the time or wants to be looking at the oil pressure.

Project X

I'm thinking of getting one of those daisy-chain-link gauges like DEFI.

HX_Guy

What is that?

Project X

I meant DEFI makes these electrical gauges that all hooks up to one single control unit.

http://www.defi-shop.com/defilink/us...k/defifrm.html

Halo

OH ...........CRAP!!!! sorry to hear about what happened What does this "girdle" HX_Guy bought do? My bottom end is pretty beefy, but i wonder if I should get ARP head bolts? I have been driving really hard for the past two days, hopefully this won't happen to me! What are your plans with the block? Rebuild? Buy a B18C or C5? I am considering going H22

Project X

How hard are you pushing it? Just to be on the safe side, I got myself a set of ARP head studs. As for the girdle, if you plan on revving high constantly, you should consider one. I have ordered mine already, but you will also need GSR main cap bolts (6 pieces), GSR oil pump pickup and GSR oil pan baffle (windage tray) to make it fit. Like Hx_Guy says, it will prevent any vibration on the crank.

My block is okay, so I can reuse it, but I need to get a new crank. I ended up ordering a used crank from Sohfast.

wdyno

is it safe for me to rev to 8000 rpm on my ls/vtec??? i have new rod bearings in with new itr piston. i also used arp rod bolts.. only thing i do really is occasionally drag race in the streets...

Project X

It should be okay to do it occasionally since you have new bearings and ARP bolts.
Just make sure you always check your oil.

93B18

Ok, I know there is a girdle on the GSR and Type R motors to keep the crank from unwanted vibrations in the high rpm range say 7000-8400 rpms. But why didn't Honda put a girdle on the B16 and B17A motors since they rev to 8100-8200 rpms redline. Wouldn't it make sense to put a girdle on these motors as well?? I've seen B16s and B17s revving up to 8500-9000 rpms on a regular basis, have pretty high mileage and still run great (no spun bearings)?? Maybe b/c of the better R/S ratio but still would make sense to put a girdle on these motors??

HX_Guy

Due to the superior rod/stroke ratio liek you mentioned, the B16 and B17 do not have a crank girdle. Its all about the rod/stroke ratio...even the D16 engines have massive girdles for all 5 mains..because of their poor rd/stroke ratio..even though an EX only revs to 7200.
Z10 also offers a girdle for th B16...but I dont think one would be needed unless you go 9500+

LSIntegra94

How can I contact Z10?

HX_Guy

Their website is http://www.z10eng.com


[Modified by HX_Guy, 9:40 AM 7/19/2001]