This weekend, THSCC found itself on the VIR Patriot course. For those who know VIR, this is basically the north and south course crossovers combined. PCA ran on the long course for the weekend, which was kind of weird to look at.

During the weekend, my buddy Matt was kind enough to let me sample a neat little toy he picked up recently:



Kevin Allen (2.5RSrocks or something like that on here) photo. As you can imagine I'm pretty much ruined on sedan-based cars for the rest of my life.

The car is a Radical, a D Sports Racer (should you autocross one I'm pretty sure it's a B Mod car). GSX-R drivetrain, 6 speed sequential shifter, full on racing slicks, data aquisition, full downforce package. This thing is a real kick in the *** to drive. AND, if it breaks (which seems unlikely), you undo four clippy things and take the body off. There it is, staring you in the face and easy to get to.

I've decided that if I ever own another racing car, it will be one of these or something like it. Consumables costs are next to nothing. It weighs like 1000lbs with the driver in it, so unlike my Integra, it doesn't burn a set of pads and tires to the ground in a weekend or two. And with all the people throwing away motorcycles, engines are apparently easy to come by and less than $2000. Try *that* with an H3 GS-R.

I only did about 8 or so laps in it but what a blast. As you can imagine with it not being mine I came nowhere close to the car's considerable limits.

Even still, I did manage to take it off. I'm not certain of what happened but I'm pretty sure I got gas and brake at the same time. Addidas == not the hot ticket for driving a sports racer with those tiny little pedals. Fortunately I didn't hurt it, but I got lucky.

If you get the chance to try one out, do it. Sequential shifters own.

 

Must be amazing to drive !

 

I have seen that car in person and talked with Matt about it. What a killer ride. I am sure that if I were to drive one, I would not want to get back in a sedan (or even a CRX) again either. His new paint job is pretty sweet.

The closest I will come to a sports racer for a while will have to be the R1 powered seven clone I am building.

How was the patriot course? I was close to going, but decided to do some more work on the car and get started on the cage.

 

I recall Scott Giles and I having an exchange about "consumables" and the cost to run one of these things compared to his ITC car earlier this year.

I'm happy to report that running the car has actually been LESS than I thought it would. The most expensive thing I've done all year was put it in a sand trap at Roebling Road. Those that saw it said it would have torn the rad out of any "street" based race car. For me, it did some body damage and cost me a splitter. The body I had was patched a few times before, so I decided to buy an entire new front clip. Not required, but I did it anyway. Cost me about $2200. Seems like a lot, but remeber this would be like replacing the front bumper, both fenders, hood, and both doors on a sedan racer. Not TOO bad, thinking of that.

Mechanically it's been dead nuts reliable (knock on wood). I can get about 4 complete race weekends on a set of tires, more if I manage tires carefully (i.e. don't use new tires for practice or testing, flip them, etc.). It uses about 1 gallon of gas for every 10 minutes on track, and has yet to burn through the $50 per axle PFC brake pads I put on back in February.

Between weekends I spend about 8 hours cleaning, checking, and generally maintaining the car. I can change all 4 shocks and springs in less than 1 hour. I can adjust the bump, rebound, ride heigh, or all 3, on all 4 corners in about 5 minutes.

I'm very happy I made the choice I did.

And Karl is right. Sequential shifters own.

-Matt

 

Amazing to drive is an understatement. It makes Real Race Car noises. It's a bitch to launch from a standstill thanks to NO flywheel (not kidding) and a hair trigger clutch. The clutchless sequential shifting simply can't be beat - it's so fun I short shifted the car big time just so I could experience it. Turning the tiny little steering wheel is a real workout for this computer geek.

I basically was petrified of the thing the entire time I was in it but the more I think back on it the worse I want one.

Patriot course was...interesting. It 's very, very busy as the only straight is about 1/4 of a mile long. Turning a fast lap there requires one to put his vehicle at considerable risk of hitting something, as we saw this past weekend. There's one 2nd-gear section going back onto the North Coruse crossover that I thought was completely hateful, some folks liked it. I'd go back, but I'm never gonna FTD there.

 

But the big question here Matt is the exchange rate for races in an ITC car vs. races in a Radical???
I'm thinking, since your consumables are as low as mine... Its 1:1.


I actually had a chance to co-drive a DSR (LeGrand I think) at a Solo 1 a couple of years ago and I passed on it. I'm still kicking myself for that one.

 

Someday you and I will be at an SCCA test day together and we'll talk.

-Matt

 

That thing is awsome, bout how much is the total cost on one?

 

i understand your enthusiasm karl.

i've been keeping an eye on these radical things for a few years now (before i decided to build the spec miata). the D/CSR class seems to be growing slowly, but steadily, and the car really isn't expensive to purchase either. mid 20's seems to be the norm for used ones. you guys probably aren't familiar with Mike McGinley, but he has a CSR Radical (and a T1 Z06, both of which he's taking to the runoffs), that gets all its race prep done in the shop where i keep the miata. they really are quite impressive. as you mentioned, the ease of accessing all the major componentry really makes you jealous coming from production cars. and they look plain badass.


if the class continues to do well, as of right now, that's where i'll go after miata if i turn out to be any good at this (we'll find out soon, as a brand new motor is sitting on a pallet waiting to be installed in the miata). FA would be great, but i don't think i can afford to keep one running properly, in either the time or monitary sense. as of right now, i like the stohr chassis the best, as it has been proven at the runoffs, and is considerably lighter than the CSR Radical.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by I SAY EH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Someday you and I will be at an SCCA test day together and we'll talk.

-Matt</TD></TR></TABLE>

Whats your schedule for the rest of the year?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">as of right now, i like the stohr chassis the best, as it has been proven at the runoffs, and is considerably lighter than the CSR Radical.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, the Stohr is the Runoff-s winning chassis. For me, I have no aspirations revolving around the Runoffs. I mean, it'd be neat to do it sure, but I have neither the money or the talent to win the thing. So the Radical is for me. I certainly don't think you can touch a CSR Stohr for mid 20s either.

Graham's got me off looking at second hand Formula Mazdas as well, which have gotten cheap all of a sudden. Only problem with that is I can't imagine any DE group letting you run in an instructor session with an open wheeled car. That and it's got an H pattern gearbox, and that's just no good

Really, when I total up how much I've got in my Integra, and look at how much it would have cost to get a Radical, I feel like an idiot.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...I feel like an idiot. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Over time I too recognize the enormity of my idiocy.

Scott, who's going to keep being an idiot for a while longer...anything else would be outside my comfort zone...

 

I have a few friends who owns Radicals and raced them regularly in SCCA races here in West Coast. to say they are cheap to operate are understatement. These guys were Porsche racers, and they thought about fixing those cars are pretty much about the same with the Porsche. In addition, these cars breaks all the time. The friend I was refering to is organizer of http://www.amracing.org/ and ncracing.org
same thing were said by an acquaintance that won OTC 2003 in the radicals.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Turning a fast lap there requires one to put his vehicle at considerable risk of hitting something, as we saw this past weekend. There's one 2nd-gear section going back onto the North Coruse crossover that I thought was completely hateful, some folks liked it. I'd go back, but I'm never gonna FTD there.</TD></TR></TABLE>

What did they hit? The end of the pit wall at pit in? I have seen a few laps around there from a BMW club instructor's in-car. That section (going backwards on the North Course) looked kind of harry to me. It looks like fun overall, but like you say higher risks.

 

Is this the same people that make the SR3 and SR4 (the one that has broken the lap record at the Nurburgring?



Check out the video! http://www.radicalmotorsport.c...b.mpg

Oh Santa - please bring me one this year....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yes, the Stohr is the Runoff-s winning chassis. For me, I have no aspirations revolving around the Runoffs. I mean, it'd be neat to do it sure, but I have neither the money or the talent to win the thing. So the Radical is for me. I certainly don't think you can touch a CSR Stohr for mid 20s either.

Graham's got me off looking at second hand Formula Mazdas as well, which have gotten cheap all of a sudden. Only problem with that is I can't imagine any DE group letting you run in an instructor session with an open wheeled car. That and it's got an H pattern gearbox, and that's just no good

Really, when I total up how much I've got in my Integra, and look at how much it would have cost to get a Radical, I feel like an idiot. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Is this for DE's or racing? If the former, then I am sure it would be a hoot but seems like a lot of baggage for the goal - tow vehicle, trailer, permanent use spot in the garage. I'd go back to that idea of an e36 MTree; at least you'd get multiple uses out of it for probably less money.

And for the money, I hear ya on not wanting to run the competetive car cause you don't care today but will you always not care? If you got into it, would you want that built in requirement that you'd need to swap out chassis to be competetive (or built in knowledge of it being comparatively inept)? I don't know anything about them (these cars or costs), just going by what it seems you are saying above. Kinda seems like you'd be swapping out a perceived uncompetetive situation for another similar situation.

I thought SRF's were like 18k used - would this not be a more affordable situation?

 

A few notes on Patriot course.

THSCC and Z club of NC ran a DE and a time trial this pas tweekend. It was decided EARLY on that it would be for experienced drivers only as there is really little time to relax and catch up. Most of the runoff, which was not plentiful, was downhill (on grass) to armco or concrete.

As Karl said, to turn a fast time you had to be willing to throw the car around much, much more than I ever have at any other track. That and you had to hop the gators and use the dirt directly behind them.

For your reference Matt G in his Radical turned a lap at 48 seconds on this 1.1 mile course, most of which, in a real car, is done in 3rd. A light weight M3 did a lap of 52 seconds. Patrice Bousquet in his early 70s 911 turned some 53s. For us Honda folks I believe I had the fastest Honda lap at a 55 even.

I found it to be a fun rewarding track with lots more to learn. Turn 1 is extemely fast....if you can force yourself to take it that way. The downhill esses (turns 2,3 and 4) are kind of like the esses at Road Atlanta but closer together. Like CMP it has what has come to be called an autox section which leads out to the north course cut over.

Because there were folks on the full course we ran the clockwie which put us on the north course cut over in the opposite direction. Not terribly bad since you are in 2nd coming on to that section of the track.

If you've run south course imagine the spiral but in the opposite direction. I found it to be a bit more intimidating than going the "correct" direction. Probably because the armco is just off to your left with no tire wall buffering it.

If you get the chance drive it. Ignore that it looks "simple" on paper. Its not. Lots of elevation changes, lots of blind corners, and very technical to drive.

Oh yeah, Radicals do a fine job of cutting the grass!!

 

ok, i give. the radical costs about 42.5k new, and sells for about 25 used, and the stohr sells for about 65k new, so it's probably more like 32.5k used. that was for the runoffs-winning spec car, so it was the most expensive optioned car possible.

either way, i think i'd have to go with stohr just because i'd want my driving to be the fault of not winning, and not the equipment.

the radical SR3 (CSR version, i think uses a 1300cc Hyabusa motor) has 2 seats in it and would probably work for DE's. although you'd probably scare the instructor to death as fast as those things are.

Big Phat R - yes, they are the same company.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> although you'd probably scare the instructor to death as fast as those things are</TD></TR></TABLE>

Unless you are the instructor....

RJ - thinking

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I thought SRF's were like 18k used - would this not be a more affordable situation?</TD></TR></TABLE>

There are two SRFs in the latest SportsCar for $18k and change.

The CSRs are a lot faster though.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

RJ - thinking</TD></TR></TABLE>

About what?

Rock bottom investments for well used equipment...
Radical - $25K
Enclosed, low deck trailer - $4K
Tow Vehicle capable of towing a big box - $10K (WELL used)

So call it close to $40K for DEs???
Really???
From a really really well off person who is scared to death of actual W2W racing... Sure. But for 99.9% of us a car like this for DEs makes absolutely no sense.

Now, if you already have the tow vehicle and were thinking of spending something like $20 to 30K on an ITS or H1/H2 type car and trailer... Then this might be something to divert your attention.
But thats a hell of alot of money and effort to drive around waiting for point-bys.

 

I heard the used Radical market has jumped in price. $25k seems very low.

Exchange rates have pushed up the cost of new Radicals so prices on
the used ones have gone up accordingly.

 

Adam - it'd be for both DEs and racing, just like what Matt's doing with it. I just don't ever envision myself having the money to develop a runoffs-winning-capable car.

I don't know much about the Spec Racer Fords. I'm pretty sure they have auto-based drivetrain (read: H pattern...again, thats no good ) and that's about all I know about them.

While we're talking about it, there's also the matter of a Sports 2000, but here again, the only car of this type I've turned a wheel in is the Radical. And I likes me some Radical.

As to instructing in the thing, I'm not sure it's any worse than any other race car. Nobody could possibly hear me in my Integra for example. And typically, I haven't had a problem finding a car to borrow if I've got a student who is in dire need of a ridealong.

As to using it as a *student* car, that I'm not so sure about. I suppose you could do lead-follows. But I've ridden shotgun in a Diasio 962 before and it was pretty scary stuff.

 

i've seen multiple for sale in the last 3 months in the sub 30k range. almost got me to sell the miata and the GSR.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoelG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

There are two SRFs in the latest SportsCar for $18k and change.

The CSRs are a lot faster though.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No for sure, there is little doubt that a CSR is a significantly faster car, but at what price and how fast do you want to go? 2:15s at VIR Full in a SRF seems pretty fast to me in a car limited to what? 118 mph? on the straights. I also would think there are alot more SRFs (be it regionals or nationals) to race against than CSR or DSR cars. There aren't a lot of these (sports racers) per their race groups are there?