Black R

I think my setup and latest experiences may be of interest to many on this board:

'00 itr w/b18c5
toda spec b's
toda valve spring set
portflow Ti retainers
toda gen 2 cam gears
aem cai
apex i vafc
toda racing header
godspeed test pipe

stock catback exhaust, stock block, stock compression (10.6:1), stock headgasket, stock clutch, tranny, flywheel, and ecu. Stock itr otherwise.

Dyno'd this past Saturday to get my setup tuned in with a wideband o2 sensor.

Last time I dyno'd, I had some "safe" settings on the vafc and made 175whp.

This time, on a different dyno I was able to get my final numbers to 185whp/ 128tq

First off, I was trying to get my a/f levels to a good setting... It was fairly easy to add fuel where I was running lean and remove fuel where I was running rich... Deciding how much to take out or add required a little trial and error, but eventually we got in the 13.5 ratio across the board...

Next, I went to play with the cam gears and use jack's (B18CXr's) suggestion to max out the intake cam all the way advanced. The most I could move it was 2 marks on the gear... So I immediately lost peak whp by ~5whp and gained power in the midrange... Weird. I had expected to gain peak and that's all... I moved it back to 1.5 marks advanced and it seemed bring the peak back up and midrange down. Next I retarded exhaust by 1 mark and my midrange was back up again and the peak was still 185. Ok, I decided I don't know crap about what 1 mark on a gear is equal to. I thought 1 mark=1 degree but that just can't be right! I mean 2 marks and it was maxed out (seemingly). Someone else there (lots of people shouting out advice) said I was advanced by 10 degrees when I had it by 2 marks... Who knows?

Anyway, I of course had to tune the fuel again to get everything nice and in the 13.5 levels. The dyno guy (Arthur @ www.dynolab.net) was really cool. He suggested I might want to add a little more fuel to be safe if the weather gets much cooler... I was really surprised how much I had to lean it out up top to keep from running rich - by 8%!

Also, that aem makes it soo lean at 4000-4500. I couldn't add enough fuel to compensate for it! I'm thinking of an arc box now...

I still think I can get a little more out of my current setup with cam gear tuning and maybe an exhaust...

I still have power steering, ac, etc... Due for an oil change too. So maybe 190's soon?

*edit: dyno plot below.




All in all, I was pleased with my newbie tuning experience. Hopefully, I'm on my way to the goal of 200+whp...

Suggestions, advice, flames? Lemme have it!


[Modified by Black R, 4:21 PM 12/7/2001]

Ross

AEMs suck. Please get an Icebox Ken!

Mike K

No flames. I'd suggest maybe an OBD-1 clip w/ a chipped ECU. You'd be surprised what kind of power is made up top with the increased fuel and timing.

Maybe not.. or go management. Hondata, Power FC, etc..

Your torque will go 130+ if you raise your compression a little. Shave like 20 thou off the head. Your compression will be around 11.2:1 and you'll still have clearance for the Spec B cams no problem.

Regarding the Toda cam gears, I'll be the FIRST guy to say they are a pain in the *** to read. I don't care what makes them better than the bunch.. AEM's are just so much easier to read.
Yes, AEM bolts are shitty. They round off or strip... but I use hardened steel replacement bolts that are 1/4" allen heads. They look kinda like pressure plate bolts with allen heads. Real nice quality.

Anyway, good luck Ken. If you're gonna be at the dyno day in Tampa, I can bring a OBD-1 clip and Skunk2 ECU for you to try. Couldn't hurt.

Splat

Ken - Stock exhaust is definitely holding you (and me) back. What rpm do you peak at? I'd almost bet money on around 7900...

[fyi] I have the same basic setup as Ken, minus the test pipe (jeg's cat) and valvetrain.[/fyi]

FAST4DR

iTrader: (2)

I agree, Mike. Power FC or something similar would be nice. Also, ditch the AEM and if you would like to try an ARC elbow, let me know. I have one sitting here, getting dusty. BTW, your ATS is on the way!

Cosworth

Ken's initila A:F

FAST4DR

iTrader: (2)

and after...?

Willard

J00 da mang!

185 + ~4 for P.S. = 190 is in your hands... drop the factory cat-back for a fart pipe... = 195?

Torque in your mid-range is BETTER than peak #'s anyway...

Will
-F juns

sackdz

How about an FPR to provide enough fuel for that 4k-4.5k range, and enough fuel for any future mods you have.

Also, AEM has just released a revised set of gear with harder tooth ring, and improved bolt desgin:
http://www.aempower.com/cam_gears.htm

sackdz

Haha so discrete i like i like

B18CXr

for the love of god take that ******* stock catback off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Kengs

Kenny,

U are welcome to try my ARC box with that Dave@R&D's intake chamber. It probably will have to go in kinda sideways (cause it's bigger) , but your hood will be up anyways at the dyno


[Modified by kengs, 2:17 PM 12/5/2001]

GeorgeY

Kenny just sell all your parts to me and buy new ones.. thats your problem....old parts.... you just need to buy new ones. hahahaha

Black R

Ross, I hate comptech so that option is out. ARC is looking much better right now...

Jack, I know the exhaust is a huge bottleneck but it was a dyno day and I didn't want to blow people's eardrums out... I have a solution to that coming shortly, but what I wanted to show is that 185whp is possible on stock compression and stock catback... And this is my first time "tuning!" lol

FAST4DR

iTrader: (2)

Ken,
Just let me know if you wish to try it out!

sgT

Thats why the gears came with instructions.
Otherwise you wont know what the settings are.

This is one of the reasons i really dont like the toda gears.
A little too cryptic with all those markings. I rather just use regular
adjustable gears with easy to read marks.

Michael Delaney

I think jack will agree with me here: Shouldn't people tune to get a flat wide torque curve that sits as close to peak torque as possible? Isn't air:fuel ratio more of a compass and not a goal in itself? I always thought that air:fuel just told you the direction in which your fuel delivery should be tuned not as the ultimate destination itself? Maybe I'm off base here.

sgT

Tuan is right, tune for maximum power across the powerband.
The A/F ratio is mainly a guideline which imo is more useful for boosted cars
as those have a much greater chance at engine damage than NA cars.
I dont know of any NA cars that blew motors running lean.

I know my cars have made more power running more rich than most.

Black R

Well, I really try to listen to the car and see what it likes... But I was making more power running leaner - the closer to 14:1, the more it liked it...

And yeah, the cam gears are kinda hard to read but with toda gears and spec b's they are safe if they slip like crazy... still won't damage anything if they advance all the way. Besides, it's only a reference point y'know?

VTEC4GS

hello, here is where you're going in the wrong direction ...

so you have no overlap, you try to richen up but the car doesn;t like it, IF you had only moved the gears (+ on intake / - on exhhaust) you'd be surprised to see how the car would respond with more fuel. By having no overlap then running it lean makes it seem like you're making (more) power when in fact you're going in the wrong direction and will slow ACCELLERATION (although it looks good at peak HP).

Hmmm, if you were local to the tristate area I'd tell you to bring your car here and I'll pull an extra 5-6 lb-ft torque along the powerband for you just to show you that it can be done... *SIGH*


Greg

Black R

Well, we'll see... Actually, I advanced the intake 1.5 marks and retarded exhaust 1 mark (toda gen2 cam gears, remember Greg?) and then adding fuel actually raised midrange and peak... I'll try to add more fuel again and see how that affects it next time. Right now, I'm at ~13.5-1 across the board.

Next step is to get rid of the aem POS and use something that gives a more linear air delivery across the rpm band... I'm also going to do some kind of an exhaust cutout at the end of my test pipe, so I can see the effects of that versus stock catback.

Then back to the dyno and I'll try some more of your suggestions.

mafay2

I also have to advance the exhaust cam to get more power on my specB set up. But I guess I didn't retune the fuel curve when I change the cam gear setting. All I did is use the Greddy AF meter to tune the AF to the approx good range. Then tune the cam gears.
May be when I goto the dyno next time, I will retard the exhaust cam a bit and then retune the fuel curve to see if it will help.
Thanks for the great advice, vtec4gs.

Black R

*edit*

dyno plot added above for those still interested...


[Modified by Black R, 4:28 PM 12/7/2001]

sgT

This has to be the first time i have ever seen someone make LESS torque in vtec
than not.

Black R

haha. I guess so. for me.

Also, it looks like I was adjusting the cams by 10 degrees at a time!

Right now, I'm advanced by 15 deg intake and -10 deg exhaust... I guess that's why my plots look so crazy...

For those of you with toda gen 2 cam gears, the middle inner dot counts 10 degrees for each slash and the other two dots on the inner gear count 5 degrees for each slash.

I guess I'll play with those gears further next time... lol

Thanks for the help steve. I was away from my machine when you sent me the IM...




[Modified by Black R, 6:16 PM 12/7/2001]