ls-vtec vs b18c5. the $5000 shootout.
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ls-vtec vs b18c5. the $5000 shootout.
seeing as how a normal b18c5 swap with a clutch and whatnot will run you $5000, what do you guys think about a built ls-vtec?
just interested to hear what you all think, and which will be better in the end.
just interested to hear what you all think, and which will be better in the end.
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From: Hendersonville, NC
It depends upon what car the engine is going into. If you will need a complete swap, it's hard to beat a 98 spec JDM ITR engine. However if the car is already equipped with a B series, then it will definately be more effective to build an LS/VTEC.
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From: Hendersonville, NC
Well, in a 93 hatch. The 98 spec JDM ITR engine will have an immense effect. You'll already have the benefit of a 4.785 final drive and LSD, along with the already potent ITR engine. If you gut the car, throw on some good tires, and mess with the suspension a bit, then the car will scream in virtually any comptetition of motorsports.
Going with an LSVTEC setup, you'll have several different options with which to start off with. Your first option is to get an LS complete swap and source a VTEC head along with the other necessary components. Your second option is to source a B16A complete swap and source an LS shortblock along with the other necessary components. I didn't include finding a B18C complete swap as the price will throw it well beyond the $5000 budget if properly built.
LSVTEC option number one will run you about $2500 for the swap and the head. You'll then need to rebuild the bottom end, preferably with higher compression pistons and a balanced crank which will cost around $1000 (bottom end rebuild with crank balancing and P30 pistons). Then you will need to invest in the actual build of the LSVTEC with a kit or by just throwing the parts together, lets say $250. An AEBS intake manifold with a Hondata gasket isn't a bad idea, $250. Then we'll throw the remaining $1000 into a JDM DC 4-1 header, some ITR cams, and ITR valvetrain. We'll have a torquier engine, but will still have the downside of the extremely long geared LS tranny without the help of LSD.
LSVTEC option number 2. Lets say we want LSD, so a complete second gen B16 swap with LSD should go for about $2600 and an LS shortblock can be found for $400 with some searching and some patience. Thus leaving us with a $2000 budget. Again we'll need to dump some money into the rebuild, but being that we already have the P30 pistons, we'll say $750 for the rebuild this time. Again throw $250 into the necessary LSVTEC components, and then the $1000 for the header, cams, and valvetrain. Giving us a very similar setup to option number one, just with slightly reduced power due to the lack of the AEBS manifold and Hondata gasket, however you will benefit from the shorter gears of the B16 tranny, and of course LSD.
Either way, you still won't achieve the gearing advantage of the JDM ITR tranny, however the compression and airflow can be equalled with option number one, and you can come close with option number two. For that amount of money, it would be a dead toss up between the mentioned setups, but it would be a hell of a lot easier to just get the JDM ITR engine and be done with it.
Going with an LSVTEC setup, you'll have several different options with which to start off with. Your first option is to get an LS complete swap and source a VTEC head along with the other necessary components. Your second option is to source a B16A complete swap and source an LS shortblock along with the other necessary components. I didn't include finding a B18C complete swap as the price will throw it well beyond the $5000 budget if properly built.
LSVTEC option number one will run you about $2500 for the swap and the head. You'll then need to rebuild the bottom end, preferably with higher compression pistons and a balanced crank which will cost around $1000 (bottom end rebuild with crank balancing and P30 pistons). Then you will need to invest in the actual build of the LSVTEC with a kit or by just throwing the parts together, lets say $250. An AEBS intake manifold with a Hondata gasket isn't a bad idea, $250. Then we'll throw the remaining $1000 into a JDM DC 4-1 header, some ITR cams, and ITR valvetrain. We'll have a torquier engine, but will still have the downside of the extremely long geared LS tranny without the help of LSD.
LSVTEC option number 2. Lets say we want LSD, so a complete second gen B16 swap with LSD should go for about $2600 and an LS shortblock can be found for $400 with some searching and some patience. Thus leaving us with a $2000 budget. Again we'll need to dump some money into the rebuild, but being that we already have the P30 pistons, we'll say $750 for the rebuild this time. Again throw $250 into the necessary LSVTEC components, and then the $1000 for the header, cams, and valvetrain. Giving us a very similar setup to option number one, just with slightly reduced power due to the lack of the AEBS manifold and Hondata gasket, however you will benefit from the shorter gears of the B16 tranny, and of course LSD.
Either way, you still won't achieve the gearing advantage of the JDM ITR tranny, however the compression and airflow can be equalled with option number one, and you can come close with option number two. For that amount of money, it would be a dead toss up between the mentioned setups, but it would be a hell of a lot easier to just get the JDM ITR engine and be done with it.
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From: central, nj, usa
Re: ls-vtec vs b18c5. the $5000 shootout. (jbell)
hrm..
look at this ls/vtec http://homemadeturbo.com/tech_....html
it made 175hp on the dyno...
isnt that what a stock r will make?
look at this ls/vtec http://homemadeturbo.com/tech_....html
it made 175hp on the dyno...
isnt that what a stock r will make?
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Boondocks, Northeast, USA
So why would you get an LS tranny?
Lets say you pick up an LS short block bare for $200 (i got mine for that price), a complete b16 head for $600, and a b16 tranny for $600 (give or take). That brings the total to $1400.
Next, new bearings, lsvtec conversion kit, $150, arp head studs $150, eagle rods (they come with arp rod bolts) $300, ctr pistons/rings/pins $300. Thats $2300.
Throw on ITR oil pump, $100, ITR timing belt $60, dohc vtec distributor $200 (give or take), ITR intake manifold $240, hondata intake manifold gasket $80, aem cold air intake $200, decent plugs n wires, new cap rotor $120 (thas high). $3300.
This is where the big power comes in, and dollars. Throw in portflow valvetrain (check out the spring test on importreview.com for more info) $200, JUN 3 cams $800, adj cam gears $150, and the rest on hondata + tuning.
Having more whp and tq than an ITR swap = priceless.
Sounds like a lot of work, but thas the fun part
As far as other mods, ie clutch, exhaust, header, well, gotta have something to work for.
Lets say you pick up an LS short block bare for $200 (i got mine for that price), a complete b16 head for $600, and a b16 tranny for $600 (give or take). That brings the total to $1400.
Next, new bearings, lsvtec conversion kit, $150, arp head studs $150, eagle rods (they come with arp rod bolts) $300, ctr pistons/rings/pins $300. Thats $2300.
Throw on ITR oil pump, $100, ITR timing belt $60, dohc vtec distributor $200 (give or take), ITR intake manifold $240, hondata intake manifold gasket $80, aem cold air intake $200, decent plugs n wires, new cap rotor $120 (thas high). $3300.
This is where the big power comes in, and dollars. Throw in portflow valvetrain (check out the spring test on importreview.com for more info) $200, JUN 3 cams $800, adj cam gears $150, and the rest on hondata + tuning.
Having more whp and tq than an ITR swap = priceless.
Sounds like a lot of work, but thas the fun part
As far as other mods, ie clutch, exhaust, header, well, gotta have something to work for.
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Boondocks, Northeast, USA
Re: ls-vtec vs b18c5. the $5000 shootout. (jbell)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jbell »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hrm..
look at this ls/vtec http://homemadeturbo.com/tech_....html
it made 175hp on the dyno...
isnt that what a stock r will make?</TD></TR></TABLE>
look at this lsvtec.
http://www.importreview.com/dy...2.gif
it made 206whp, and 145tq....mind you with a chipped ecu and iceman intake, and itr cams. hondata, aem, and jun 3's would make way more than that.
look at this ls/vtec http://homemadeturbo.com/tech_....html
it made 175hp on the dyno...
isnt that what a stock r will make?</TD></TR></TABLE>
look at this lsvtec.
http://www.importreview.com/dy...2.gif
it made 206whp, and 145tq....mind you with a chipped ecu and iceman intake, and itr cams. hondata, aem, and jun 3's would make way more than that.
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From: central, nj, usa
Re: ls-vtec vs b18c5. the $5000 shootout. (zensoku207)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zensoku207 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
look at this lsvtec.
http://www.importreview.com/dy...2.gif
it made 206whp, and 145tq....mind you with a chipped ecu and iceman intake, and itr cams. hondata, aem, and jun 3's would make way more than that.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
good lord. yeah, so i want that engine. time to start finding prices on:
lsvtec w/ b16 head
itr cams
ctr pistons
iceman intake
p&p
cam gears
FPR
4-1 header
es oval
clutch
look at this lsvtec.
http://www.importreview.com/dy...2.gif
it made 206whp, and 145tq....mind you with a chipped ecu and iceman intake, and itr cams. hondata, aem, and jun 3's would make way more than that.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
good lord. yeah, so i want that engine. time to start finding prices on:
lsvtec w/ b16 head
itr cams
ctr pistons
iceman intake
p&p
cam gears
FPR
4-1 header
es oval
clutch
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From: Eindhoven, Netherlands
Re: ls-vtec vs b18c5. the $5000 shootout. (jbell)
Don't just look at the power the motors make. The main thing that attracts me to the Type R engine is the fact that it's been designed to scream at ridiculous rpm for hundreds of hours. The LS/VTEC is not. I don't care how well you build and balance it, it will not last as long as the Type R engine which has gone through immense testing by a world-class company.
If I had LS/VTEC, there would always be something in the back of my head which would keep me from driving it the fullest. I would always worry about when it would let go, and I would keep tabs on how many times I redline it...even if I didn't realize it. I know what factory Honda motors can do though, and with a Type R I could keep it at redline for hours straight without worrying one bit about it. To me that's priceless. Definately worth more than a couple horsepower.
If I had LS/VTEC, there would always be something in the back of my head which would keep me from driving it the fullest. I would always worry about when it would let go, and I would keep tabs on how many times I redline it...even if I didn't realize it. I know what factory Honda motors can do though, and with a Type R I could keep it at redline for hours straight without worrying one bit about it. To me that's priceless. Definately worth more than a couple horsepower.
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From: assville, MI, USA
Re: ls-vtec vs b18c5. the $5000 shootout. (Lsos)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lsos »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Don't just look at the power the motors make. The main thing that attracts me to the Type R engine is the fact that it's been designed to scream at ridiculous rpm for hundreds of hours. The LS/VTEC is not. I don't care how well you build and balance it, it will not last as long as the Type R engine which has gone through immense testing by a world-class company.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I am guessing you are refering to the infamous rod stroke and piston sideloading issues?
If you have a sleeves, block posts, forged rods and pistons... what is going to fail?
The fact of the matter is you don't HAVE to rev an LS/VTEC as high as an ITR. The rod/stroke causes the pistons to dwell at TDC for a shorter period, shifting the powerband lower. Reving higher up isn't going to create any more power.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I am guessing you are refering to the infamous rod stroke and piston sideloading issues?
If you have a sleeves, block posts, forged rods and pistons... what is going to fail?
The fact of the matter is you don't HAVE to rev an LS/VTEC as high as an ITR. The rod/stroke causes the pistons to dwell at TDC for a shorter period, shifting the powerband lower. Reving higher up isn't going to create any more power.
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Re: ls-vtec vs b18c5. the $5000 shootout. (StyleTEG)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StyleTEG »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am guessing you are refering to the infamous rod stroke and piston sideloading issues?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm talking about that, the quality control, the oil jets, the extra counterweights on the crank, the coating on the pistons, the lighter valves, the different crank journal design, the stiffer block, the better lost-motion assemblies, the fact that it was all selected for durability just as much as for ultimate strength and power (as opposed to aftermarket race parts), and probably some other stuff that I forgot to mention.
You cannot beat honda OEM for durability. You might "upgrade" the parts and be able to throw five times the power at them, but not for five times longer. Probably much less than just as long, in fact. And besides, after you go through sleeving and forged parts and rebuilding, won't you be at/ beyond the price of a type r anyways?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm talking about that, the quality control, the oil jets, the extra counterweights on the crank, the coating on the pistons, the lighter valves, the different crank journal design, the stiffer block, the better lost-motion assemblies, the fact that it was all selected for durability just as much as for ultimate strength and power (as opposed to aftermarket race parts), and probably some other stuff that I forgot to mention.
You cannot beat honda OEM for durability. You might "upgrade" the parts and be able to throw five times the power at them, but not for five times longer. Probably much less than just as long, in fact. And besides, after you go through sleeving and forged parts and rebuilding, won't you be at/ beyond the price of a type r anyways?
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From: assville, MI, USA
Re: ls-vtec vs b18c5. the $5000 shootout. (Lsos)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lsos »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
the oil jets, the extra counterweights on the crank, the coating on the pistons, the lighter valves, the different crank journal design, the stiffer block, the better lost-motion assemblies,
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Oil squirters in the block are for cooling, with a forged piston cooling is much less of an issue.
Stiffer block? They both have cast iron push in sleeves, and alluminum walls. Neither is stronger.
Better LMA's? You are using a vtec head. The LMA's are all honda.
You think that a forged rod or piston is going to have a shorter lifespan than the stock ones making the same amount of power?
I don't see any reason why that would be the case.
the oil jets, the extra counterweights on the crank, the coating on the pistons, the lighter valves, the different crank journal design, the stiffer block, the better lost-motion assemblies,
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Oil squirters in the block are for cooling, with a forged piston cooling is much less of an issue.
Stiffer block? They both have cast iron push in sleeves, and alluminum walls. Neither is stronger.
Better LMA's? You are using a vtec head. The LMA's are all honda.
You think that a forged rod or piston is going to have a shorter lifespan than the stock ones making the same amount of power?
I don't see any reason why that would be the case.
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From: Eindhoven, Netherlands
Re: ls-vtec vs b18c5. the $5000 shootout. (StyleTEG)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StyleTEG »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Oil squirters in the block are for cooling, with a forged piston cooling is much less of an issue.
Stiffer block? They both have cast iron push in sleeves, and alluminum walls. Neither is stronger.
Better LMA's? You are using a vtec head. The LMA's are all honda.
You think that a forged rod or piston is going to have a shorter lifespan than the stock ones making the same amount of power?
I don't see any reason why that would be the case.</TD></TR></TABLE>
They did add an extra engine stiffener to the type r. I'm not sure if it's bolt-on. There's also the crank girdle and oil cooler I forgot. The LMA's are different part numbers, but I guess mechanical differences are debatable.
As for the pistons, I've talked to engine builders that say forged pistons are softer and will wear faster than OEM. Besides that, they need to run looser clearances and I'm sure that the resulting piston slap is not a good thing for both piston and sleeve. So yes, I don't feel they would last as long. Other than that OEM have the molybdenum coating and extra oiling holes. In any case Honda didn't feel it was sufficient to just take any random piston and slap it in there. They obviously did their research on it and made quite a few changes from a GSR piston for a mere 400rpm. This is all debatable, but I would trust Honda pistons in my engine over aftermarket any day.
Basically this is my reasoning for preferring a type R engine over a built one. You probably have different thoughts, and if you'd be comfortable running a built engine the way you want to then all the power to you. I know I would not. I know I would be satisfied with a few horsepower less for peace of mind, but I know a lot of people would not. I'm just throwing something at this guy to think about.
Oil squirters in the block are for cooling, with a forged piston cooling is much less of an issue.
Stiffer block? They both have cast iron push in sleeves, and alluminum walls. Neither is stronger.
Better LMA's? You are using a vtec head. The LMA's are all honda.
You think that a forged rod or piston is going to have a shorter lifespan than the stock ones making the same amount of power?
I don't see any reason why that would be the case.</TD></TR></TABLE>
They did add an extra engine stiffener to the type r. I'm not sure if it's bolt-on. There's also the crank girdle and oil cooler I forgot. The LMA's are different part numbers, but I guess mechanical differences are debatable.
As for the pistons, I've talked to engine builders that say forged pistons are softer and will wear faster than OEM. Besides that, they need to run looser clearances and I'm sure that the resulting piston slap is not a good thing for both piston and sleeve. So yes, I don't feel they would last as long. Other than that OEM have the molybdenum coating and extra oiling holes. In any case Honda didn't feel it was sufficient to just take any random piston and slap it in there. They obviously did their research on it and made quite a few changes from a GSR piston for a mere 400rpm. This is all debatable, but I would trust Honda pistons in my engine over aftermarket any day.
Basically this is my reasoning for preferring a type R engine over a built one. You probably have different thoughts, and if you'd be comfortable running a built engine the way you want to then all the power to you. I know I would not. I know I would be satisfied with a few horsepower less for peace of mind, but I know a lot of people would not. I'm just throwing something at this guy to think about.
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From: assville, MI, USA
Re: ls-vtec vs b18c5. the $5000 shootout. (Lsos)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lsos »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Basically this is my reasoning for preferring a type R engine over a built one. You probably have different thoughts, and if you'd be comfortable running a built engine the way you want to then all the power to you. I know I would not. I know I would be satisfied with a few horsepower less for peace of mind, but I know a lot of people would not. I'm just throwing something at this guy to think about.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Gotcha. I see where you are coming from.
I am of the opinion that a well built motor can make plenty of power and still be street-able (and part of that is not having to rebuild every 30k miles).
Like I said, alot of the things can be added including a block girdle, and you can make compromises in aftermarket pistons (silicon content, etc) for longer durability.
Basically this is my reasoning for preferring a type R engine over a built one. You probably have different thoughts, and if you'd be comfortable running a built engine the way you want to then all the power to you. I know I would not. I know I would be satisfied with a few horsepower less for peace of mind, but I know a lot of people would not. I'm just throwing something at this guy to think about.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Gotcha. I see where you are coming from.
I am of the opinion that a well built motor can make plenty of power and still be street-able (and part of that is not having to rebuild every 30k miles).
Like I said, alot of the things can be added including a block girdle, and you can make compromises in aftermarket pistons (silicon content, etc) for longer durability.
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