I wanted to post it here, but since it's a bit more Accord specific...

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=703185

I've been talking with GC and Koni for that past few days, as I'll need a custom linear spring rate for Auto-X and daily driving. I've always wanted H&R Sports, but they are progressive rate springs, which means they may not be as well balanced as a linear spring...
GC's off-the-shelf GC coilovers have a spring rate of 450lbs/in. in the front, and 300lbs/in. in the rear. That makes for a more understeering setup.

The GC guy on the phone recommended I bump it up to 450F/400R, which seems good and not too bad at all when it's paired with a much larger rear sway (adjustable). The GC guy also feels that the limit for Koni's needing to be re-valved for my car is 500+, which seems right.

However, here's the crappy part, the Koni guy has told me repeatedly that even 450F/300R is going to wear out the shocks faster, which means I'll need them to be revalved!!! It would only get worse with 450F/400R

I really don't want to disagree with the manufacturer of the shocks, because at the end of they day, they know best...

So, who here has an Accord on GCs with Konis, and have they "worn out" at all? Even you Accord guys with Tokicos and KYBs on GCs, have your shocks worn out, or will they wear out?

The whole idea for me to mod the suspension was so I can have fun at an autocross. I could easly afford spending money on getting shocks revalved, but I'm not going to do it as a college student with a Honda Accord daily driver!!!

Thanks,
LX4CYL

 

who is the "koni guy" that you talked to? if it wasn't someone _from_ koni, i wouldn't listen to him. give good 'ol lee grimes at koni a call. he'll set you straight. (he's CRXLee on this board)

nate

 

CRXLee should have a post up in 3... 2... 1....

On a side note, this isn't very specific to Accords. You talking about the same setup issues that all FWD cars have, Accord, Integra, Civic...

 

double post...

 

well, it's Gordon Benson. We've been communicationg via email...

here's the entire convo:

response from Koni:

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Geratol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">CRXLee should have a post up in 3... 2... 1....

On a side note, this isn't very specific to Accords. You talking about the same setup issues that all FWD cars have, Accord, Integra, Civic...</TD></TR></TABLE>

well, the Accord-specific part was about the Koni application for the Accord being able to work with 450F/400R. It's all good, I posted it in both forums, and I hope it's ok with the moderators...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LX4CYL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and I hope it's ok with the moderators...</TD></TR></TABLE>

That will be $20.

I accept paypal.

 

I run the 400/350 In my ITR..Im switching the 400's to the rear shortly.

If you want comfort I would go for less of a rate.

I drive my R quite a bit, but I have grown accustomed to the feel, anyone else that gets in my car...ie my Mom, complains.

Keep in mind the ITR is a bit lighter than the Accord, so this may have something to do w/it. Honestly you will end up changing your rates several times...it's a trial and error thing IMO.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DsR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I run the 400/350 In my ITR..Im switching the 400's to the rear shortly.

If you want comfort I would go for less of a rate.

I drive my R quite a bit, but I have grown accustomed to the feel, anyone else that gets in my car...ie my Mom, complains.

Keep in mind the ITR is a bit lighter than the Accord, so this may have something to do w/it. Honestly you will end up changing your rates several times...it's a trial and error thing IMO.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I talked with GC on the phone about hte rates. On the Accord, they recommend I do not go any lower than 450 in the front if I want to lower the car, which I will. The rear can go as low as 300...

 

well, looking at other forums, it's pretty clear that 450F/400R isn't going to work with the Konis without a re-valve job (something I really want to avoid!).

The guy from GC insisted that anything lower than 450 in the front will cause my front shocks to bottom out if lowered. Is this true for the Neuspeed-Konis (SP3, 20mm shorter rod) on my 3000lb.+ Accord?

I'm going to called H&R and ask what their spring rate <u>range</u> is for their H&R Sports that drop 1.5"F/1.2"R, because that is pretty much the exact drop I want, and I've never heard of them bottoming out on the Neuspeed-Konis...

I think I'll ask Gordon about the minimum front rate too...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LX4CYL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well, looking at other forums, it's pretty clear that 450F/400R isn't going to work with the Konis without a re-valve job (something I really want to avoid!).</TD></TR></TABLE>

I ran 450/600 on a 91 Integra RS. A little underdamped on the rear over bumps, but it felt fantastic overall.

450/400 on a slightly heavier car should be fine.

 

why dont you just listen to what the koni rep says and save yourself some money and time. geezus, youre the one making this a difficult decision. get the konis, get he GC with lower spring rates and a higher rear spring bias with a rear sway and be done with it. and dont drop the car so low youre bottoming out because it wont give you any performance. listen to what the koni guy is saying by not running such high spring rates at first, ESPECIALLY since this is your daily driver and complain about having a rough ride.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why dont you just listen to what the koni rep says and save yourself some money and time. geezus, youre the one making this a difficult decision. get the konis, get he GC with lower spring rates and a higher rear spring bias with a rear sway and be done with it. and dont drop the car so low youre bottoming out because it wont give you any performance. listen to what the koni guy is saying by not running such high spring rates at first, ESPECIALLY since this is your daily driver and complain about having a rough ride. </TD></TR></TABLE>

hehe, calm down!

I'm sure you haven't read my last post, but I'm not going with 450F/400R because Koni has pretty much told me not to (no re-valve). I'm listening to everything that Koni has told me because, at the end of the day, they're the ones who know the best about THEIR shocks! I have never once disputed anything Koni has told me!!!

Anyways, I'm about to ask him (Gordon from Koni) to make sure I won't have trouble with bottoming out in the front if it were lowered a little bit and used a front rate lower than 450. The guy from GC felt that they will bottom out if the rate was lower than 450 in the front, and if the car was lowered. However, he probably didn't know that I'm going for the SP3 Konis with the 20mm shorter rod, so I don't know if GC was right about the bottoming out...


Modified by LX4CYL at 1:40 AM 12/12/2003

 

You don`t want the H&R`s, trust me. The GC Reps know what they are talking about.

 

If I can use 400F/350R without bottoming out on a 1.7"F/1.2"R drop (3000lb+ car), with the 20mm shorter rod Koni Sports (Neuspeed;SP3), then that's what I'm going to use!

I've just sent an email to Gordon asking that:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">cool!

Again, I would like to thank you again for taking the time to answer my
lengthy questions. It seems as though others have been giving me incorrect
information, so I'm glad I'm able to talk to you and get the correct info

Anyways, my final question is about bottoming out. Ground Control has told
me that any front rate lower than 450lbs/in. will cause the car front shocks
to bottom out when lowered! This can't be right can it? Remember that I
would be using the SP3 Konis with that 20mm shorter rod, and I'd say I
wouldn't go any lower than 1.7"F/1.2"R on my 2002 Accord I4...

Per our discussion, it's clear that I'm going to have to get lower spring
rates than 450F/300R to avoid wearing out the Konis (or needing a re-valve
job), but now I need to make sure I won't bottom out the Konis with a lower
rate, and a lower ride height...

Again, the progressive H&R Sports are looking better and better to me
everytime!

Thanks,
Pranav.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LX4CYL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I talked with GC on the phone about hte rates. On the Accord, they recommend I do not go any lower than 450 in the front if I want to lower the car, which I will. The rear can go as low as 300...</TD></TR></TABLE>


That's odd, GC is the one who talked me into 400/350..I wanted to run 400/450 originally.

 

on what car? weight?

 

Geez...hard to know where to start so these can be taken in any order.

- Wow, that is some serious customer service. He spent a ton of time answering every question to a T and more. I need to either pin a medal on his chest or smack him around for wasting too much time as he gets hundred such emails a week. Not often when a company rep actually suggests that you not spent all the money right now on custom work, that is assistance and not just sales.

-You need to relax. Take a deep breath. This is not life and death, it's just 50 freakin' lbs of spring rate on a rather heavy street car. Go with the 450/400, go with 450/300 and more rear bar, get the KONIs and run them as they are. If after actually using the parts you feel that the valving is not enough then have them revalved. That is why you are getting adjustable shocks so you can tune and no other brand offere the performance and and range that the KONI does. My bet and Gordon's suggestion is that they will be just fine and let yourself prove that you need more valving. Don't over analyze it. Don't argue with the waiter before you place your dinner order if you will prefer one or two pinches of salt on your meal. Order dinner, try it, add salt to taste.

-Gordon is a good guy, dedicated car guy (2 VWs, 1 Miata, 1 Lo-cost Seven project, and a '59 Bugeye Sprite H Prod Racecar) but he isn't a religious figure sitting cross legged on a mountain top who can foretell the future how someone potentially thousands of miles away might need for exact spring rate for their own preference and roads on a lightly modified street car. Just way too many variables to predict precisely. Gordon and I and the GC guys can only get you in the ballpark based on our own and considerable customer experiences and feedback. You are going to be the judge and driver, you will have to have some of your own input. No way that he or anyone can tell you exactly if you car will have a potential bottoming issue by splitting enough hairs. All it takes is one squirell running across the street and a well placed pothole and a near stock height car can have a bottoming problem.

-If your dad doesn't like the ride in your car, take off the 18s first.

-I have posted a ton of times that there is no single hard "this spring rate is the exact edge for this shock valving, no farther" answer. Too much going on. When you customize somethiing to a specific need, it always has the opportuntiy to do a better job at a target task but it may give up a little elsewhere. An Armani suit looks much better on a night out than an off-the-rack suit but for general daily wear it may not last quite as long. Big deal, it's not like it will self-destruct next Thursday.

-No wonder my tech guys wander the halls muttering to themselves.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-No wonder my tech guys wander the halls muttering to themselves.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Muahaha..I'm surprised you aren't doing the same.

Thank gawd Lee chimed in..

It's trial and error, in all honesty.... I started w/400/350. now going to 350/400..then possibly 400/450.

You dunno until you try

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
-No wonder my tech guys wander the halls muttering to themselves.</TD></TR></TABLE>

lol

just for refernce LX4CYL, I'm running 450/500 on stock koni yellows, albeit on a lighter integra RS, but still. works just fine.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Geez...hard to know where to start so these can be taken in any order.

- Wow, that is some serious customer service. He spent a ton of time answering every question to a T and more. I need to either pin a medal on his chest or smack him around for wasting too much time as he gets hundred such emails a week. Not often when a company rep actually suggests that you not spent all the money right now on custom work, that is assistance and not just sales.

-You need to relax. Take a deep breath. This is not life and death, it's just 50 freakin' lbs of spring rate on a rather heavy street car. Go with the 450/400, go with 450/300 and more rear bar, get the KONIs and run them as they are. If after actually using the parts you feel that the valving is not enough then have them revalved. That is why you are getting adjustable shocks so you can tune and no other brand offere the performance and and range that the KONI does. My bet and Gordon's suggestion is that they will be just fine and let yourself prove that you need more valving. Don't over analyze it. Don't argue with the waiter before you place your dinner order if you will prefer one or two pinches of salt on your meal. Order dinner, try it, add salt to taste.

-Gordon is a good guy, dedicated car guy (2 VWs, 1 Miata, 1 Lo-cost Seven project, and a '59 Bugeye Sprite H Prod Racecar) but he isn't a religious figure sitting cross legged on a mountain top who can foretell the future how someone potentially thousands of miles away might need for exact spring rate for their own preference and roads on a lightly modified street car. Just way too many variables to predict precisely. Gordon and I and the GC guys can only get you in the ballpark based on our own and considerable customer experiences and feedback. You are going to be the judge and driver, you will have to have some of your own input. No way that he or anyone can tell you exactly if you car will have a potential bottoming issue by splitting enough hairs. All it takes is one squirell running across the street and a well placed pothole and a near stock height car can have a bottoming problem.

-If your dad doesn't like the ride in your car, take off the 18s first.

-I have posted a ton of times that there is no single hard "this spring rate is the exact edge for this shock valving, no farther" answer. Too much going on. When you customize somethiing to a specific need, it always has the opportuntiy to do a better job at a target task but it may give up a little elsewhere. An Armani suit looks much better on a night out than an off-the-rack suit but for general daily wear it may not last quite as long. Big deal, it's not like it will self-destruct next Thursday.

-No wonder my tech guys wander the halls muttering to themselves.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not too concerned with the ride comfort...

Anyways, I'm very happy that Gordon has taken the time to answer my questions! you're right, he does deserve a medal!

See, it's going to be a while before I can begin to mod the suspension, but I want to be able to do it right the first time, hence the reason why I may have seemed a bit obsessive-compulsive

If I can safely go with 400F/350R, I'll be a very happy person.

Thanks,
Pranav.

 

i have a ef hatch which weighs around 2150lbs and I run 400front and 450 rear with the neuspeed koni's. And this car is my daily driver. The ride really isn't all that rough just make sure you leave the shocks on full soft, that will prolong the life of the shock also.
I kind of understand what they guy is saying on the phone about the shocks need revalving soon. Because our old race car need to get the shocks revalved after about 1.5 years or less, but you have to remember the car was abused and it was driven on the street sometimes, and to autox events as well. Funny though because at nationals though were revalving koni's for "free" my boss was trying get all the shocks sent out their and revalved for free.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by goforbroke &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have a ef hatch which weighs around 2150lbs and I run 400front and 450 rear with the neuspeed koni's. And this car is my daily driver. The ride really isn't all that rough just make sure you leave the shocks on full soft, that will prolong the life of the shock also.
I kind of understand what they guy is saying on the phone about the shocks need revalving soon. Because our old race car need to get the shocks revalved after about 1.5 years or less, but you have to remember the car was abused and it was driven on the street sometimes, and to autox events as well. Funny though because at nationals though were revalving koni's for "free" my boss was trying get all the shocks sent out their and revalved for free.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'll probably turn up the firmness to avoid underdampening, or bounciness. Hopefully I'll get to do this at my club's pratice sessions over the summer

 

Sorry I didn't read the complete thread. But know this, these guys really know what there talking about.

Heck more than likely as you learn to drive your car and progress in your knowledge those spring rates will probably change anyways.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RangerDan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sorry I didn't read the complete thread. But know this, these guys really know what there talking about.

Heck more than likely as you learn to drive your car and progress in your knowledge those spring rates will probably change anyways.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hence the reason why I've chosen to wait. If all goes as planned, I would have done about 15 autocrosses before I make any purchases...