i noticed since i did that, that the rear sway bar actually goes over the LCA by a little too much as a result of bolting it directly to the subframe, which causes the endlink to be at a bad angle, (roughly 65-70) from the ground.
whereas, if you used the bracket that mounts it away from the subframe, it pushes the swaybar farther towards the rear of the car, thus.. making the ends of the sway bar almost right in line with the rear lower control arm, and thus creating the endlink a near ideal 90 degrees from the ground.
I know the stock ITR has their swaybar mounted on the subframe also, but maybe since they reinforced it.. or something.. that their subframe is different than ours (that is, it's slightly further back than a normal integra). does anybody understand wat **** im talking about?? or it's confusing?? thanks

 

reason i post this is that after i installed the sway bar, i noticed my rears became very stiff, as if the sway bar was in effect even going straight, as if there's a load on the swaybar even when going straight... where its suppose to work only during cornering.. as if their's always a load on the sway bar due to the angle created by bolting the swaybar onto the frame.

 

get a Beak's or BSQ kit (search)

 

re-read my post please.. i already did bolt the swaybar directly onto the swaybar via BSQ kit. I'm posting it because i see a problem by doing that.

 

i need an input.. i just looked at my endlink bushing.... the bushing on the bracket closest to the lower control arm. It is severely stressed when the car is on the ground... it's just not right..

 

I'm sorry, you didn't specifically mention how it was mounted to the subframe.

are you sure the swaybar isn't upsidedown? it'll fit both ways

 

no its not.. dman it.. hahaha

please just picture it.. uggh.. lemme find a pic..

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=291990

that's the best pic i can find for now.. look at the 2nd pic.. since that sway bar is mounted on teh bracket (about 1/2 inch away from the subframe), notice how the endlink bracket sits almost at 90 degrees to the ground, because the ends of the sway bar is almost in line with the LCA. now, if you bolted the sway bar directly onto the subframe, (which will move the sway bar roughly 1/2" forward, the ends of the sway bar now will hang a little too far forward past the LCA, which in order to bolt it on to the LCA, the endlink bracket will create roughly a 65-70 degree angle to the ground, which to me looks like it places a load on the sway bar even going straight, which would probably answer why the hell my car is so damn stiff in the back.. even going straight.

The function of the rear sway bar during cruising on a straight road is not to function at all.. that is how it was supposedly designed.. but it sure isnt doing it for me. .


Modified by mingchi69 at 6:47 AM 8/25/2003

 

once again.. notice this pic

http://ownerages.com/ITRInstall/driverfinish.jpg

if you look closely.. see how the endlink bracket creates an angle to the ground as a result of mounting the sway bar 1/2" forward

 

You're talking about the angle of the endlink to the LCA, correct?

This really should not be causing the issue you think it is. The only way to apply any load to the sway bar right now is to compress/extend the suspension. Or otherwise, raise and lower the LCA.

I would agree that this issue is not ideal and may be causing some resistance, but I sincerely doubt it would be noticeable. I have a similar issue because I had to drill some holes in my LCA to mount my swaybar correctly.

Also, swaybars do add some stiffness to the suspension. When I put a 25mm front sway bar on and it noticeably stiffened the suspension. If load is applied equally to both sides of the car, you will not feel the sway bar, but let's be honest, how many bumps take up the whole road? Not many. Most of them are small potholes, so you're car is going to be stiffer in most road conditions. Personally, I had to adjust my Koni's to compensate for the increased stiffness.

 

raise your car's height a little

 

Are you talking about when the ITR bar is mounted to the subframe, the endlinks angle towards the front of the car? If so, I noticed that, too. I'm not sure what to do about it. I bet they would be alright if we used ITR rear LCA's and shocks.

However, it doesn't matter what angles the endlinks and bar are making with each other, unless the bar is being twisted (suspension on one side compressed or extended differently than the other side) then there is no load on the swaybar.

 

okay okay

I think I understand now what you're saying. It's hard without pics sometimes.

let me ask you this, could you use a longer bolt (make sure it's strong) and some washers to make up for the difference? come back and tell us if it changes your ride characteristics.

 

I just installed ITR swaybar with BSQ mounting kit yesterday and immediately notice the stiffness of the rear end while test drive even on straight. There is at least another member here noticed the same thing. I thought this is a good thing but am not sure anymore. There are 2 things we can try: 1. add some washers to move the bar back a little. 2. Torque down the screws *after* the car is lowered to the ground which I didn’t do. I am not sure what caused the stiffness. When both LCAs move up and down same amount the bar should rotate around the mounting point on the sub frame without causing any drag, maybe because the bar was mounted a little towards the front and the brackets form a different angle and the bar won’t rotate smoothly? And this is why the car is raised a little higher?

 

yea.. i was thinking about that.. the beaks kit seems like it mounts the sway bar farther back... wheras the bsq.. barely.
the endlink bracket bushing... the one that has the long bolt going into the LCA, the bushing is very badly stressed that it doesnt look normal. I definately know that the sway bar is causing the stiffness of the rears, because when i unbolt the endlink bracket from the LCA, my ride is smooth again. and of course, when i unbolt the endlink bracket from my LCA, my rear alignment is totally way off.. an indication that the sway bar is constantly creating a load on my LCA... which is definately not how it was designed.


Modified by mingchi69 at 5:13 PM 8/25/2003

 

ride height will not affect it. the sway bar has the ability to rotate freely around the bushing and will cause the same exact angle regardless of how high or low my car is... it is the how the swaybar is mounted from the swaybar that will affect it. you see this by torquing the endlink bracket bolt to yr lower control arm while the car is on jack.. and notice the angle it creates, then lower yr vehicle to the ground, and it will be the same angle.
A possible solution to this i can imagine is maybe make the endlink bracket longer.... so the swaybar can be turned clockwise to a point where it's in line with the LCA.. but by doing that.. the distance from the end of the sway bar to the mounting point on the lCA will be increased.... but if somebody made a longer endlink bracket, it would solve the problem.
BTW, i do have koni yellows in my car, and even with it set at the softest setting.. still gives me a stiff *** ride in the rear.. I also have the jdm 23mm bar.. probably doesnt help in that either.
On a side note, i have looked at a stock ITR rear sway bar mounted on a ITR and the endlink bracket does create an ideal 90 degrees to the ground.... the reason i think this is is that the subframe was made differently from a stock integra.. and mounting a swaybar directly on a ITR is different than mounting it directly onto a stock integra. any other thoughts??

 

you know what's causing the stiffness?? is because of that angle created by mounting the swaybar on the subframe, that the sway bar is constantly being loaded, even going straight.. where it was not designed to, only suppose to be loaded on corners.
i thought about adding more washers, but that to me seems like it defeats the purpose of mounting it directly on the subframe.. and might actually do the same thing as what the stock bracket has. by adding washers, you're in turn actually mounting the sway bar away from the subframe again.... and subframe tearout might be possible.
another indication that the rear sway bar is constantly being loaded even going straight. A rear sway bar SHOULD not affect yr alignment.. (because rear sway bars is designed not to function going straight). On a stock swaybar everything lines up perfectly and bolts up to the LCA without affecting anything. i noticed since i installed my rear sway bar.. that i had to maniuplate my LCA (move it forward), just to get the bolt into the LCA. When i unbolt it.. the LCA returns back to the position it wants to be. Another great indication the swaybar is being loaded

 

one more thing guys.. please picture this.. an ideal angle should be 90 degrees right.. all rear sway bars from factory has exactly 90 degrees.
when you're mounting your sway bar directly onto the subframe, you're causing a rough 70 degrees being created. What is really happening here???
when an angle of not 90 degrees is formed, your rear sway bar is trying to make it so that it is 90.. to relieve stress on it, and a force of trying to turn the sway bar clockwise to achieve this is applied, (therefore creating a load on the swaybar). but it cant do it.. because the endlink bracket is only so long. This is not normal guys.. and something needs to be done.

 

I wonder if it's possible to use a longer bolt going thru the endlink into the LCA and use some spacers or washers between the endlink bushing and the LCA. Eh that's probably just asking for a broken bolt I would guess.

Like I said, I bet the different betw. ITR's and non-R's is the different rear LCA's. They probably mount the endlink a bit farther forward (since the LCA itself is much wider).

 

ahh.. that might actually work.. but ehh..... it wouldnt feel right though..because you would have to put quite a bit of washers.. maybe 4-5 just to get it right. i dunno how comfortable i would feel bout that..
AHHH.. i see it now.. THAT's why a ITR rear LCA is different from a stock integra. I've always wondered why the hell the designed it differently, and now i know why. it is so that the sway bar can be mounted correctly.. Damn.. .

 

well I wouldn't say that is WHY the ITR LCA is designed that way. They could have just made the end arms of the sway bar shorter (thus even stiffer). I think it's also that way so that the rear shocks use a more conventional monting. The bushing/eye piece on the bottom of ITR shocks is MUCH more common than having the bushing in the LCA and having a fork on the bottom of the shock. I would say that the lengths of the end arms on the sway bar is actually probably BECAUSE they decided to go with that design of LCA.

 

well.. i believe the main purpose of them redesigning it is so the sway bar can be mounted properly... and then they just added some improvement along the way..
If honda went out of their way to redesign a LCA just so that the sway bar can be mounted correctly... doesnt that tell us that it is very important that the endlink bracket should be perpendicular to the ground??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ginsu2k &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Also, swaybars do add some stiffness to the suspension. When I put a 25mm front sway bar on and it noticeably stiffened the suspension. If load is applied equally to both sides of the car, you will not feel the sway bar, but let's be honest, how many bumps take up the whole road? Not many. Most of them are small potholes, so you're car is going to be stiffer in most road conditions. Personally, I had to adjust my Koni's to compensate for the increased stiffness.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
You hit the nail on the head
You'll feel the stiffness even the bar was installed correctly.

 

As far as I can see, adding washers would be the only solution. I don't see why it would be a problem, it's just going to add a little more leverage. Very slightly.

Also, I have my Koni's at nearly full stiff in the rear. The turn in is great, and nobody sits back there anyway. Have you tried turning up your Koni's to compensate for the swaybar? It's important to do this because the shocks will help control the swaybar.

Stiff swaybar on soft shocks=bad

 

i went to the hardware store today and bought 6 fairly thick 3/8" washers and M10X1.25 bolt 70mm long. stuck it on the endlink bracket and the bolt was long enough to poke out slightly out of the other end of the LCA.. It was also a grade 10.9 bolt too.. so i doubt it will break.

By doing this.. now i see my endlink bracket right around orthoganal to the ground, just as it is suppose to be. The ride quality is VERY noticeably much better.. not quite as bouncy, although i do still feel slight stiffness in the rear as expected with a 23mm rear bar... but at least it's not bouncy like before.

I highly recommend anybody that installed a ITR rear sway bar to do this. It will definately imporve yr ride quality.

 

So did you use 3 washers per side? I'm still not sure about that, during hard cornering that bolt will be subjected to HUGE forces. If it doesn't break it still might bend. Be sure and keep an eye on it and check it regularly.

As for the Koni shocks, I run them towards the softer end of the range most of the time, especially here in Jackson, MS because the roads are the worst I've ever seen. I have driven from the drag strip back to my house before with the front shocks towards soft and the rears on full stiff, and the ride quality SUCKED, very harsh and very stiff, even with just me in the car.