I did a search and looked through the drag racing and turbo forum front to back to find a post about this.Before the topic starts if anyone has a link please post it and we can end this discussion right now.Please dont flame me.

I am currently building my custom turbo kit and read a post on this forum "how much hp to hit 11's all moda".This makes me think about if i should spend all my mone on an ems and a custom turbo kit or go all motor for less and still be able to hit 11's on street tires.Here is my setup so far and its been built for boost:

b18c1 in a 92 civic hb
Resleeved,balanced to 10k and o-ringed
JE 83.5mm 10.0:1 flat top pistons
crower rods
prodive oil pump gear
Cometic 3mm hg so comp ratio is in the 9's
Kg built head with 1mm o/s valves
aem short ram for a 92-95 civic si
stock gsr cams with aem cam gears
jg victor x manifold
msd 6al with ss coil
stock header
3" catback with apexi N1 turbo muffler
GSR tranny
CM stage 3 and CM lightened flywheel
full interior

I have bought my garret t3 turbo ($600)pwr intercooler(595) and tial 40mm wastegate used($235shipped) for a total of $1430bux+i got 3g's saved so i would have had 4430bux plus a turbo built motor.I already hit 14.51 at 96mph with a 2.2 60' ft launching at idle without a stock gsr mani and an aem short ram full interior.Would it be cheaper to invest my $4500 to go all motor or invest it into a custom turbo kit with my 3g's and the parts i already bought.What would be more reliable cause i dont have tons of money to blow rebuilding my motor if i fry a piston or worse.Im also in an area where tuning a turbo motor is tuff since i there aint any turbo honda's here planning on boosting what i am.Maybe 2 boosted hondas and there both under 200hp with b16a motors and mid to low 14's.Im the only one planning on using an ems on my honda and boosting 20+psi if i had a tuner.This is a street/strip car and im planning on going all drag next year(04).I was planning on hitting 12's or even 11's this year boosting but it seems you can do they same going all motor,so my goals are the same.Im a big fan of both.Im interested in hearing any kinds of info that maybe be reliavant to this subject,such as hp,dyno graphs,where the power is at and area under the curve sort of thing.I want to be fast at the track and the strip.Also what is needed to hit 12's or 11's all motor,if you can name some companys or components needed.If you need any more info that i forgot post it.Thanks.


[Modified by J2turbo21, 6:45 AM 2/11/2003]

 

cheaper ... they both end up costing the same

faster ... forced induction

more reliable ... all motor but both tuned they pretty much even out, forced induction is more prone to leakage

 

the cars that are NA runin 11s are bare bone stripped to core..food for thought.
traction plays a big issue as well. both are unreliable , turbo or na..ull break one or the other heheh.

 

Any all motor guru's out there want to put there .02 cents in.I have been hanging out in the force induction forum for the past couple of months and know pretty much the pros and cons there.I know weight reduction play a big role in all motor car but i thought it was less expensive for an all motor car compared to a turbo car.

What about engine mods,i know about the boosting part but what about all motor.What kind of mods will i need to break into 11's?Comparing the price's to hit the same times.any more info.


[Modified by J2turbo21, 10:49 PM 2/10/2003]

 

most expensive pieces on the all motor application:
cams
header
pistons/rods
tranny gearing/lsd/final drive

you get them working in harmony and it'll be a killer all motor setup.

Greg

 

So what kind of gearing are we talking about?Im guessing the final drive would be a type-r part?I got a gsr tranny and plan on getting a quaiffe sometime this year.Will my crower rods be good enough?If i go all motor i got 4500bux to spend getting the peices you stated above,also when i sell my flat top je pistons,and my complete valvetrain i can make up some of the money for the all motor parts.If i go turbo i only got 3g's left and still need alot of things which include an ems and a full race mani which will kill the 3g's to about 500bux.

 

i got .02 cents so here it is. the reason why i run N/A is cause i like to have the same amount of power on the street as i do when i'm on the track(some people might think that is dumb, gay , stupid....whatever i really don't give a ****) i just don't think that running a F/I motor setup for its full potential all the time would last very long as compared to a tuned N/A motor which could be driven to and from work and then straight to the track and put down some really good times without changing a bunch of settings. Don't get me wrong i'm not putting down you F/I guys/gals its just my .02 cents remember. oh yeah and an all motor set up would cost just as much if not more....ah most of the time more then a F/I set up.
peace

 

Well I hav chosen to get my feet wet with N/A first.

Learning to tune an N/A car takes patience and dyno time and practice.

Eventually my next car will be a turbo car but by that time I am pretty sure I will have lots of tuning experience.

From a reliabilty standpoint I think its a little easier to blow a turbo motor simply beacause its easier to make big power, and fine tuning takes money which some people arent willing to invest.

If your shooting for a wickedly fast street car that runs mid to high 11's I would say go turbo.

If your looking for a car that will run mid to high 12's all day build a nice N/A setup and enjoy it.

I for one am looking to run mid 12's on streets N/A. Then I will semi happy with that power level N/A(220-230whp). My next car will run mid to high 11's on streets but will most likely be a 2.0L C1 block..400whp or so.

It all depends on what YOU want to do. In the end it will be your decision and as long as your satisfied with the results....**** everybody else's opinion.

 

want the fastest motor for the money hands down?

Buy a Prelude VTEC motor, JDM, mill the head 50k, and tune it up, and run 12's in a hatch gutted all out.
Seen a 4 door 91 civic run a 12.0 with a JDM prelude motor with a milled head and a DC header, he made about 204 WHP at the dyno here.

ran low 12's all day.

Jeff

 

I was thinking about a lude motor,but i'd rather keep my built gsr,since i got it for such a great price and would never get what its worth.I wouldnt mind either turbo or n/a,i think they are both bad a$$ and get equal props from everyone.

So how hard is it to tune an all motor car,I thought it was like dialing in the cams right some ignition timing and using a vafc for additional fuel.I know turbo cars would be alot harder and easier to blow or melt something if you run to much ign timing and not enoughe fuel.Just from what it sounds like is that a 350hp turbo car needs injectors around 550cc or more so you dont run high duty cycles or high fuel pressures where a 230hp all motor car can use 310cc injectors and dont really need tuning since it safe on a a stock ecu.Probably wont have to go higher than 310cc cause how many all motor cars make close to or above 300hp.

If i do go all motor i was thinking of selling my je pistons for something around 11:1 compression,maybe some toda spec c's or d's that they have at ericks racing and the rest of the toda components.I just dont know how the car would run with them,im sure it would be very very rough.Get a quaife diff and maybe an r tranny and lighten up the car with fiber glass doors,one peice front and hatch peice.I would love to hit 11's but to be more realistic some where in the 12's this year.


[Modified by J2turbo21, 6:32 AM 2/11/2003]

 

I'm not sure i agree. this may be true for an allmotor car that makes 200whp but not for true for one that makes 250-275whp. you say you want to have the same power on the street as the track but then you talk about reliability. how can car running 16:1 compression be reliable?? the beauty of turbo is the only setting you really have to change is the boost setting. not all kinds of settings as you say. i mean FI guys run 10-12 lbs of boost on the street and then 20-30 at the track. its kind of hard to back down your compression to 11:1 for street driving?? not trying to pick a fight just my point of view. oh and at 16:1 you will be on race gas always. we can turn down the boost for "more"reliability" than N/A high Hp cars.

 

MotorMatrix you make a good point.I want to get as many pros and cons as i can before i make a finaly decision.If i cant find a good enough reason to go all motor i'll continue my boost project.

Can some answer this question would a PnP head built for turbo be different for a PnP head built for all motor?Im not talking about the internals of the head but the actual port and polishing that is done.

 

you said for drag applications only? for NA, shorter gears are better as you will accelerate much quicker. for FI, people say go longer gears however, since you're still planning on strictly drag, i'd say shorter gears. 4.9 sounds like a nice number. or get the s jspec 98 itr lsd tranny. 4.785. pretty short. if u don't want to go custom. however, this puppy will cost u a good amount of money [1400+]

*edit - i believe the gsr is 4.4 or 4.2*


[Modified by all stock, 2:27 AM 2/11/2003]

 

I have experience from both sides over the years ... if doesnt; make a difference which path you take, its the money and the experimentation phase since thats the biggest challenge ... other option is learn from an experienced builder and tuner, problem with that is not everyone will want to share 100% of their *secrets*) ...

In your case, you can go over to the all motor side if oyu buy the right parts ... the EMS and sleeved block and even rods are things you would have bought from turbo application anyway. Now get ver nice camshafts, valvetrain, headwork, header, intake manifold and pistons.


Greg

 

So its a good thing that my motor is sleeve and i have rods already?I have a KG PnP head,but i was wondering if a PnP head for all motor is different from PnP turbo head.

 

anyone else?

 

well it should be a turbo pnp
mines well bore it out if ur seriously goin NA...86mm yo.

 

I read that 84.5 will make it a 2.0,but they said going higher will effect the sleeve's strength since its getting thinner.Is going with a bore that big bad for n/a as well as boost?

 

I am building two set-ups at the moment. My turbo set-up which is done consists of the following:

Gsr block GE sleeved to 84.5mm, Endyn rollerwave 9:1 pistons, eagle rods
Mild P&P b16a head, fully ferrea valvetrain, custom itr cams, jg manifold
b16 tranny, quaife lsd, gsr gears with b16a FD
Custom turbo kit, 900cc injectors, pwr intercooler, hondata s200, etc

My all motor set-up being currently built at GE (2.1L):

GSR block GE sleeved 86mm, Arias 13.5:1 pistons, eagle rods
Portflow p&p and combustion chamber opened to 86mm, skunk2 valves, springs, retainers, stage 2 cams, cam gears, intake manifold and 70mm t-body
B16a tranny, ats 4.929:1 FD, quaife LSD
An-r equal length tubular header, 370cc injectors, power entreprise timing belt

I an anticipating low 11's high 10's from my 2.0 turbo block. I know that its capable of seeing 500whp, but i am only going to run it around at 350whp on the streets to conserve its life.

The all motor engine will be a 11 sec motor as well in my eg hatchback. I am saving it as a back up set-up to my turbo route. The compression seems high, but after opening up the combustion chamber to 86mm and putting the b16a head on the compression is around 12.6~12.8:1. For right now i want a fast street car, but my hatchback is built up for auto-x and roadrace with its suspension, brakes, chassis. My true love lies within motorsport racing, which i want to do more. With the turbo, open track days and driving schools the car will break down very easily and create alot of problems. The all motor engine on the other hand will be fairly tame in comparision and will be able to take the punishment of a 1/2 open track event. It comes down to what you want to do. Have a fast street car, or have a fast track car (auto-x or road racing).

Oh, btw the all motor combination was cheaper by about 1,000 for me.


[Modified by boosted hybrid, 3:31 PM 2/14/2003]

 

Damn dogg i believe we can call you "Big Baller!"

But nah on a real note i have to add this in. <U>Useable horsepower</U>. I might be talking off the wall but did you say what this would be in use for? Street car? Track *****?

Theres a saying
whats reliable and cheap will not be fast
whats fast and cheap will not be reliable
whats reliable and fast will not be cheap

 

My car is a street/strip car.As for usable power it does make sense,for sure you cant use 500hp on the streets.

 

The turbo'd engine is going into my hatchback this early spring. The engine is capable of producing well over 500whp, but i am only going to put down 350whp on the streets...even that is too much. I have been through tons of set-ups, and 350whp with good tires and a quaife seems to be the balancing limit of where i will light up the tires and get traction. I have the greddy profec-b with the remote button, 6psi for 1-2nd gear and 14psi for 3-4 gears (14 is a guess as to where i will need to be to hit 350whp). The turbo engine is going to be mostly daily driven, but occasional romps to the track. I downsized the turbo from a 60-1 .82a/r to a more street friendly t3/to4e 60 trim .63a/r. I did this to achieve spool up, and better overall efficiency from the compressor of the 60 trim. I spent a grip trying to get every last part that i felt was needed to make it as reliable as i could. I had to refabricate all my piping, intercooler, etc to assure no more pipes blowing off. Your right it wasnt cheap at all but i am looking for the quickness and reliability.

The all motor engine set-up will be street driven on pump gas. Its main purpose is a auto-x and open track day events. With both i plan on making the combinations fairly reliable. I will have to see how it goes.

 

I constantly read these posts about 350-400whp being the limit for the streets. Have any of you guys ever put 255/50/16 bf g's on your car at 12psi of pressure and tried laying down 450whp to the street? I can tell you that if was sitting at 350whp all the cars i have beat would have been all over me at 350whp. i have drag launch springs, traction bar,255/50/16's and a profec b which I leave the hole on 20-22psi with. no relying on that gay button to switch or not switch or switch to high boost and back to low on its own.down here you only get one chance to run someone and nobody wants to hear that you need to raise the boost up and run again.trust me on this. if you are a diehard racer you will squeeze on a set of chunky drag radials and stiff rear springs and you can lay down 450whp to the ground.

 

Word...

Personally, If I was building a turbo setup...I would be shooting for 500whp, Period.

Suprdave

 

things to consider:

you will never see 11's on street tires in a n/a honda........well, maybe if it weighted 1500lbs.......maybe. turbo is still the fastest on the street and at the track. and remember, na is not more reliable. reliability comes from quality of your set up, tuning skills, and a lot of luck.

it is very difficult to make over 215-220 on 93 octane in a n/a motor and be anywhere close to "safe". however, with say, 210 to the wheels in a 2100-2200 street hatch, your looking at around 12.70 on drag radials. thats on pump gas. so if you wanna be alot faster than that on street tires, it won't be on pump gas.

turbo hondas, built and managed right, can run 11.99 or better on 93 octane on street tires in the same weight street hatch(as the n/a car). i am not a huge fan of running 400 hsp on 93 octane, but there are a few people doing it with some degree of success(so far).

turbo has been proven to be without a doubt faster on pump gas(if all other perameters are the same) in our cars.





[Modified by jinxproof99, 6:04 PM 2/15/2003]