I used to drive a 01 ITR before it got stolen. It had ABS on it...before the ITR, i had never autoxed before, nor had i ever been on the brakes hard enough to induce either lockup or ABS...

now im driving a 93 dx hatch...in the ITR i'd just stomp down and let the abs do its job, but the hatch doesnt have ABS...soooooo, my question is...what kid of braking technique should i employ if the tires were to lock up on me...

just quickly let off and get back on them? slowly let off? shrug

 

Didn't you just contradict yourself there?

 

You just have to get to know the car. I don't have ABS on my Civic Si and you just have to stomp on it to the point of almost locking up and then backing down a bit.

It's a matter of feathering the brake like you would with your clutch when you go from a stop.

I drove Chris' National winning Civic Si and stomped on his brakes harder cause the car was lighter and didn't get any brake lock up. Just pratice young jedi

 

I would argue that you shouldn't "stomp" on the brake at all. This denotes a quick forceful movement. Think of the term "squeeze" as a more descriptive way of what you should be doing.

 

Picky picky

Ok I should have used "rolled" onto the brake

 

Threshold braking. Apply brakes just short of lockup. If a wheel locks up, release brake slightly, just enough to get the locked up wheel moving again. Once the wheel starts to rotate again, you will probably need to re-apply more brake pressure to get back to the ideal point of threshold braking.

 

I think it partially depends what kind of surface you are on:

Dry - "Squeeze" the brake pedal until you feel the tires on the brink of locking up. You may momentarily lock up one wheel, then back off slightly until the wheel(s) that are locked up begin rotating again and reapply pressure until you are threshold braking again.

Wet - "Squeeze" the brake pedal until you feel the tires on the brink of locking up. If you do lock one or all up, let completely off the brake and reapply. I think it's easier to get the locked wheel rotating again with the greater friction on a dry surface which necessitates the need to let go completely and try over again.

Snow/Ice - Same as wet.

An example of what not to do (particularly after you go through the timing gates):



[Modified by mojoGSR92, 9:26 AM 11/6/2002]

 

Picky? Stomp the brakes on track one time and I guarantee you will NEVER do it again. If you don't bend any metal it will be a good learning experience. Autocrossing creates bad habits on track. Ask me how I know . . .


Autocrossing = Stomp/Stab until your hearts content
Track Driving = Squeeze smooth and firm

 

try to brake hard as much as your can in a straight line, you can still trail brake into turns but try to minimize the side low, otherwise it's easy to lock up the inside front. i much prefer having to have ABS. even with EG's fairly slow cycling 3 way ABS, it is better than none still. from my experience i can obtain best braking just before the EG ABS kicks in. but it is handly if i have to hard brake into turns while car isn't straight (like going in to buttonhook, or doing double apex deep into T2 at launa)... etc.



[Modified by GhettoRacer, 8:31 AM 11/6/2002]

 

yeah... 'cause ABS is cheating.

 

 

It was very early when I posted that I don't communicate well before 12pm

 

i mean that before i had the ITR i'd never braked that hard...hell i was driving a 1991 toyota previa minivan...

when i say "stomp" i mean "hard braking"...sorry, i should be more clear next time...

so those of you who are avid track or autocross event drivers...if you had the choice...would you choose to have ABS or choose to drive w/o it...

i always hear people say "a good driver can outbrake abs anytime" but i dont really think everyone is that good of a driver to begin with anyway

 

I have always loved ABS but it has always been a crutch. After this weekend I am starting to like non-ABS.

 

I have never had a track car with ABS and to be honest I'd be afraid to. I think the pedal feedback would freak me out and I'd take my foot off the brake. What's funny is it never even occured to me until 2.5 weeks ago that people race with ABS... I just assumed that everyone was threshold braking. It's the way I learned to drive so it's what I like. I can't speak to driving with ABS because I've never done it but I would imagine that the physics of it would have inherent inefficiencies.

 

I have tracked cars with ABS and tracked cars without ABS and this is my opinion:

Bad ABS is worse than no ABS.

Good ABS is better than no ABS.

The ABS on my GS-R stunk. The ABS on my BMW is awesome. If I still had the GS-R and tracked it, I'd turn it off. If I ever track my BMW, I'll probably leave it on.

My $.02

Andy


edit: I'm merely talking about open track... I don't know what I would do if I was racing on track.




[Modified by maxQ, 12:39 PM 11/6/2002]

 

i prefer non ABS cars.....call me old school....but that stupid pedal feedback ***** my concentraction....feels like someone is kicking the bottom of my foot....also I've noticed that for me in autoX I tend to frequently lock up the inside rear tire....which is not a problem....but I know the crappy Honda ABS would intervene in that situation

 

BMW's will actually allow momentary lock-up if it is only on one wheel, say you ramp the apex curbing, launch the front wheel and it locks up in the air and when it comes back down it's still locked.....wow i hope someone understood that

BMW ABS=

 

when I had my GSR sedan, I took it to Pocono for a trackschool. tried ABS on and ABS off.

on AO32R.

the feel was great with ABS off.
the braking was great with ABS off.

I think if I was really driving at the limits, then ABS would help me if I got into ascary situation... but hey man, it was a school... time to learn and drive close to the limits, but not on the line.

I think you need to try some diefferent braking styles on different roads or parkinglots, preferably where people will NOT be. I did that when I got my GSR motor into my CX, it was very different... but easy to get used to with enough practice. wet weather is a PITA without ABS though, for that I miss it a bit, but pedal feel with Integra ABS sucks.
maybe ITR ABS is different?

 

I dunno if the ITR abs was any different, but to me, the pedal feedback, although noticeable, didnt really bother me

I was driiving on a go-kart track as an autox event (owen, the one in syracuse with CNY)...wasn't too big, but was nice and twisty and pretty much perfect for the ITR...lsd was doing its thing and i was braking hard at every turn, hard enough to engage abs and it felt fine -shrug-

but whatever, i guess i'll just have to learn threshold braking

 

excellent advice...

when you STOMP on the brakes you beat the forward weight transfer, which your brakes are designed to exploit (brake size, bias, etc).

If you squeeze, you should ideally be at full pressure when the weight transfer has completed. This will give you more of a steady state scenario.

This is where you have to tune your foot to your internal accelerometer.

 

I think theres a bunch of BS in this talk of ABS!

For me ABS is a rarely used assistant that saves either my tires or my ***.

I know alot of the local Porsche 944 guys mash the pedal and are into the ABS constantly as SOP.

I break to a threshold before the ABS, and only engage it in over the edge of the envelope circumstances where it is well appreciated.

Drivers Aid? Yeah - sorta, and sorta-not.

<Yoda + Ed Koch voice on> Look down on me for it do you? Well, Fu-eh-uck...Yoo-uuu. <voice off>

Scott, who loves ITR ABS.....it pays for itself....just every so often....

 

They must have some relatively new 944s because no one I know (that I can think of) races a 944 that even came with ABS. What area are you in?

 

Oregon and NW Region - SCCA and PCA. 944T's - Bob Boyer is the one who most comes to mind.

I hadn't met anyone who had ever professed to living in the ABS zone all the time before.

This was in the car he destroyed at Sears Point. I don't know that his new car has ABS.

Scott, who once wanted a 944 with a 3 litre....still seems like it would be tasty....

 

RR98ITR reminds me of a point....


street car ABS algorithims are different than race ABS algorithims.

a few Porsche Supercup cars come with racing ABS, and according to a friend it's much more suitable for the track than production ABS.

If i can find qualitative information after this weekend I'll post it.