Well, I just finished my third autocross in Dayton Ohio, and I made a strong effort to work on some things. Namely, looking ahead; it is really difficult to do if you are not used to it. On my second run I got lost on the course, and so this really helps keep the car in the right direction. My lines were messy, though, until the fun runs. I got 10 total runs (4 consecutive fun runs: 2 minutes between each one). I cleaned up my line (slower through the hairpins), and quit early-apexing which I habitually do on decreasing radius turns = . So though I was dissapointed with my performance, I made a lot of progress.

One thing that I noticed was that my Teg is always fighting understeer. I don't want a car that oversteers, but it is far from neutral. After noticing that the Hondas in stock classes were putting their rear out just a bit (and getting faster times than me), I need to change something: most likely, my driving. Once I got the speed under control (fast in, slow out :crook, I was still plowing through the track. What worked best for me was to brake and before the turn (straight steering wheel), hold off the gas for a second until I start unwinding, and then plant the pedal. I keep the understeer control by lifting, and continue on my way.

I don't believe that my car is the problem:
-Progress 22mm rear sway (stock front)
-Tokico HPs
-H&R Sports (340fr/186r) <=== probably not ideal
-205/50 15 Azenis*

*The Azenis were brand new (only ~150 miles on them), and I wasn't sure of decent pressures. Everyone else was running ~35psi or so, but I have 15x6" wheels and there is a lot of tire over the rim lip, so I kept them at 37.5fr and 37r ==> probably not ideal. They did stick well (compared to Yoko A520s), however.

I'm not implying that I actually want to lose the rear during a turn, but I would like to find the traction limit at the rear, and adjust myself accordingly. My way is definitely not the fastest way around the course, so I need to change something.

I am still a novice, so I realize that I will get faster with proactice, but I feel like I'm headed in the wrong direction. I probably should ask an instructor to sit with me to point out any obvious flaws, but I didn't think to ask.

So, what works for you/what style do you prefer? I'm open for any suggestions, and I plan on trying many different things the next time I go out.

Thanks for any advice.

 

lower the front tire pressures a little, or until they roll to the tips of the trianlge wear indicators (thats what they are for). Then raise the rear pressure until the car handles the way you want. The pressures you are running are a good starting point, and you might not need to change them very much.

 

You could:

A) Run Azenis up front and some less sticker tire out back.
B) Dump the sport springs and get a more race tuned setup with higher rates out back.
C) Learn to live with the setup you have.

 

I had a close setup to this... I guess... well not really .

You can do a lot with tire pressures. Last year I ran a weak DSP GSR.
22mm sway
koni Adjustables
Ground controls with 380F & 250R
Kumho Victoracers

I had a chronic understeer problem until I learned I could gradually dial in oversteer by adjusting my pressues. I found that if I ran ~39-40 in the front and ~28-29 the car would rotate VERY well. since you don't want excessive overstear I would try something less severe. I might suggest 35-37 in the front and 30-32 in the back. if the car rotates too much add some air to rears (a pound or two). If doesn't rotate enough... drop some more air out of the back (a pound or two). Do this until you have a setup you're comfortable with. Remember ambient temperature, surface temperature and surface type play a part in all this as well. So a setup that is good for 50degree asphalt will be different then 90degree concrete. I take notes even...

Some people will argue that you can achieve this same effect by raising the rear tire pressures. Really, either way works. its a matter of what you feel comfortable with. I find it is easier to drop the pressures...

Note : as You dial the understeer out of a car beware your first run on cold tires. the car may have a tendency to want oversteer a little more then it would on warm tires.

Cool?


[Modified by Watkinsm3, 3:47 PM 7/29/2002]


[Modified by Watkinsm3, 3:49 PM 7/29/2002]

 

Your rear springs are quite soft. You have a lot of room to work with and still keep the car comfortable for daily driving. Something in the neighboorhood of 350# rear springs should work.

Tires pressures are another great way to affect the balance of your car.

 

you haven't mentioned your toe and camber settings. toe/camber settings, and air pressure can go a long way. i like to have higher rear pressure, but lower works too. lower tends to be more gradual than higher pressure.

there are too many variations on settings. you have to experiment and set your own.

CB

 

Put the front rates in the rear you will notice a big change!

 

Hmmm...I noticed that a lot of people use higher front tire pressures to acheive more rotation. I would have figured the opposite due to allowable flex in the front tires, but then it may flex too much... I suppose that there are many variables. I guess I will try differing both significantly.

As for camber and toe settings, I believe that my camber is approximately 1.5 deg front and maybe 1 deg rear. I had roughly 2.5 degrees in the front and rear but installed a Progress camber kit to save my tires. I have no idea what the stock toe setting is, but I have not adjusted it myself, and didn't ask for anything when I had it aligned (a while ago), so I imagine that the settings are pretty tepid. I'll check my Haynes (sucky) manual to check how to adjust toe, or seach google.com.

I am looking for driving input. I understand that different driver & different car = different , but I was hoping someone would share some general driving tips that they find successful/unsuccessful.

I know my springs are a problem. I am saving up for Koni Yellows and custom GCs, but that's a bit into the future.

Thanks for the tips so far, I'm considering everything.




[Modified by GSpeedR, 9:18 PM 7/29/2002]

 

I was having the same problem with getting the car to turn. I dropped my pressures down one pound in the front to 36 and it completely changed the car. IT was unbelievable. The front stuck and I was able to get the car to rotate much better. Back pressures are around 26psi. I still think I need to up the rear spring rate, but it is much better. So basically, I think 36psi front is the magic number for tegs. As far as your camber, it seems pretty good. I also have about 1.5 front and ~1.0 rear. I would actually like to get less rear camber, but I dont feel like spending money on a kit... yet.

Next time come out to columbus and run!!

 

There are certainly many things you can do to your car to get the results you want. However, you should try to change your driving, as you mentioned. If you want to get your car to rotate better as you turn in, the #1 thing to do is learn to use weight transfer to your advantage. If you are turning in, try trail braking. i.e. Brake lightly as you enter the turn (like 40%). See how it feels. You should be able to make the car rotate to the point that you do a small spin even if you have stock suspension. If you can do that, you can adjust your braking to make the car follow the line you want. What many novices do is they brake much too hard, which causes understeer.

Also get more experienced drivers to coach you. It's definitely the best way to improve your times. After that you can start futzing around with your setup.

 

I definitely brake hard. That is probably the reason why I brake with the wheel straight, as late braking would often make the car plow heavily. This is my first autocross with my upgraded brakes (Axxis Ultimates etc.), so that may take more acquaintance time in racing situations.

About transferring weight before/during a turn, I really had trouble keeping the car balanced. I would quickly go wide before apexing (in the other direction) and the car seemed reluctant to turn back, and instead understeered. I'm not sure if my movements are too abrupt or if my line is unnacceptable (entirely possible ).

I know! I recently found out that I have a region right here in Columbus at OSU! I drive up there every other day to visit friends. The problem is there isn't an event for a while. Do you know if there's anything going on sometime soon?

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

I've been having trouble rotating also, it just loves to plow for some reason.

92 Accord Sedan
Stock suspension
ST rear sway bar
F/R STB's
1994 Prelude VTEC rims 15x6.5
205/55-15 Kumho Ecsta Supra 712's
40psi front
36psi rear

I will try lowering front to 36psi, and go from their.
Also will try trail braking....however I've noticed it sometimes engages ABS. I guess I just have to modulate to threshold.

 

couldn't be more true! I just recently made the switch to autoXing an Integra from a 99 Mustang Cobra...needless to say the handling characteristics are COMPLETELY different...anyway, I've noticed that front drive cars respond very nicely to trail braking. instead of mashing the brakes hard before the corners, have faith in your car and give the brakes a light tap to get enough weight off the back wheels to allow them to drift around instead of following the fronts like a couple stray dogs after a bone. I've found that the more comfortable you get with this tactic you can even oversteer a FWD! I had Scooby fans cheering on one run where I entered a sharp right hander too fast and stepped the tail out the scrub some speed. Remember...the key to being fast in AutoX is being smooth. Repeat that to yourself until you dream about it, that's what I did....and it got me 7 first places last year!!

 

I really think you should try running 38 front 42+rear. You really need to maxamize the grip you can get out of the front tires.

 

1 - smaller front bar in the front

2 - swap the springs front to rear , good for daily driving and better rotation

3 - play with tire pressure

those spings flipped will be very nice

 

With the Aziens, I've noticed that lowering the rear pressure makes my car rotate better. This is the exact oppisite than what I'm use to with the Kumo 712s. Try running the Aziens at 40F/30R and see how it feels.

 

Try front 38-40psi (hot) and rear 43-45psi (hot). 1/16 toe out front and 0 toe rear. Actually maximize front traction with pyrometer and adjust rear until you get the rotation you desire.

This should help.

CB

 

Just in case you are confused about the conflicting information you have been hearing about running rear pressure really high or really low, consider the following points:

1. For any particular setup, there is one tire pressure setting that will yield maximum grip in the front and one in the rear. This is affected by everything. Achieve that pressure for the front. 36 may be your magic number, or not (mine appears to be 30 on a totally different car)

2. Going higher OR lower than this optimum will decrease grip. Do this in the rear. It is a trick (bandaid) to achieve rotation and achieve balance only. Very high and very low feel much different, but achieve similar results.

3. Eventually, stiffen the rear of the car (springs or sways) so that the car is balanced with the rear tires set at pressures which create maximum grip. In effect this relieves the front of some of the cornering "duty", thereby increasing front grip (which is what you really want). Then the car is balanced *AND* optimized.

Yes, this requires a lot of testing, and good experiment design. Tuning is a science! (and an art).

Hope this helps.

 

Can't rotate = Springrates and tire pressures (and driving style too).

And folks, he's using Neuspeed sports--you can't swap those around because they are specific to the front and rear.

Also, you say you brake hard. Well...some courses this is good, but some courses this is bad. Each different course requires a different driving style, so don't *always* think 100% brake entering each corner. Also, sometimes trailbraking is in order for tight corners.

But think about it--if you brake in a straight line and then start to accelerate around the corner, all of your weight is transferred to the rear wheels. That doesn't equal good rotation. This is compounded by the open diff. Lift-throttle oversteer is sometimes good to use, but I wouldn't depend on it to get me around the course.

At first, driving smooth is far more important that trying to attack the course with an on-and-off gas/brake style. And since you are on street tires, you can't charge every corner. Smooth = fast with autox, and especially so on street tires.

 

My car understeers like a ****. I have Ground Control Coils with KYB AGX shocks, RE730 205/50/15 tires, and a Comptech combo Tie/Sway.

The rear seems to just stick. I did get sideways in the last AutoX and drifted for about 1.5 secs and had to countersteer to prevent spinout. ANyway, with these mods, people say that my car understeered WAY TOO MUCH. Sooo I had this idea.

1. I'm going to run lower pressure than what I usually do in the rear for AutoX
2. I adjusted my rear shocks to be even stiffer than before.
3. I'm going to raise my rear about one inch to get the car more loose in the back. Also eliminating some neg camber.

Basically, Im' trying to rid of my plowing. Cuase I'm sick of everybody telling me that my car understeers way too much. People are saying that it REALLY REALLY understeers...... man....

I know that DRIVING is also KEY but i would like some ideas since I have so many little things I can fool around with. There is a lot of ideas that are posted previously and I'm taking it into consideration but if there is anymore more suggestions.
What do you gusy think? have anymore pointers?



[Modified by Snafu-Si, 3:17 AM 7/30/2002]

 

For those suggesting I switch spring rates, Todd00 is right, they are front/rear specific: (1.8"fr/1.5"r).

Right now, it appears that the only things I play around with is tire pressure and my driving. I did run with relatively equal pressure front and rear, and this did not provide ideal results for me. So there must be a difference bewteen the front and rear, the question is which "direction" to go in. I forgot to bring my air compressor to the grid, so I couldn't change it. Considering that my Azenis stick out a lot over the wheel lip, I don't really want to drop as low as 30 for fear of my outer edge rolling over. I suppose I'll start with 35/42 and work from there. Getting the front grip maximized sounds like a good idea, but I would think that changing the rear pressure would affect the grip of the front tires. I'll experiment, though.

As for driving, I definitely need to get smooth. By the next event, I should be used to the new brakes, tires, and rear sway (all of which were raced for the first time), so basically I was driving a completely different car.

So trailbraking is basically low pressure braking throughout the entire turn? So you begin mid corner or right at entry? I'll try that.

I also wanted to shift into first so bad at one corner, but I kept it in second and the revs were around 4K = too slow, especially because the following finish is a quick 300ft drag race. My question is, if you do downshift to first (I know it's rare), do you prefer before, after, or during a turn? I found that a lot of guys were using first to help slow down, but I afraid of upsetting the car = understeer. Will this require the mastery of toe-and-heeling, or should I sit tight, repeat "Smooth is fast" in my head and keep it in second? Once I get comfortable I'll probably just do what feels right, but for now...

It's frustrating when your limiting factor is your ability.

thanks for the responses...keep them coming

 

Instructor at my last autox said the following: Don't ever downshift. Never, ever, ever! He was yelling at me not to shift even when I bogged the engine. In his words, you just loose too much time.

He also told me to use my car's tendency to understeer into the corner to my advantage. Basically brake less, come into the corner faster and let the car's push scrub off speed.

 

Ummm...don't know if I agree with anything he said. First, if a corner is so blindly slow, then go back to first if you feel comfortable and the car can take it. Top drivers shift when they need to and it will save you time if done correctly, especially in a torqueless car.

Second, push to scrub off speed? Not recommended IMO. You'll quickly cook your street tires and have no turning ability at all--same goes with slicks on a hot day. Use your brakes and take a different line, but don't push to scrub off speed in the corners. Who was this instructor?

 

Something else you can try is left foot braking. Helps rotate FWD cars very nicely!

Common technique I use :

-Brake hard before the turn (but not completly).
-Trailbrake into the corner.
-Get back on the gas.
-use your left foot on the brake to (gently) to help rotate the car while your right foot is on the gas (not full throttle though!).
-ease back into full throttle as you smoothly unwind the wheel.

This is easier said then done. you'll need to practice modulating the brakes with your left foot on the street to get used to it. Pulling this off without getting tangled gcan also be a problem. On top of that... every corner is slightly different and may need a different approach.

This chronic understeer/push can also be a result of just trying to go too fast through a slow section of the course. try and identify these in the course walk.

Just some ideas... let me know if you need more info or a better description.

 

Don't remember his name, but he was a member of the Fairfield County Sports Car Club, which hosted the event I attended.

I should point out that I was probably braking too much before the corners I bogged, if I had been driving better the problem might not have been as acute but I was definitely not in my GS-R's powerband

Edit: To clarify, his instructions were for 2-1 downshifts


[Modified by Angry Joe, 8:59 PM 7/30/2002]